In thinking marriage is an institution preferred by the middle class

[disorganisedsecretsquirrel]

and based on economics ?

I will tell you the truth. I know absolutely NO One who Is unmarried with children. Middle class mother of 3. Dc now in early 20s and 18. Live in South East. Work full time in the Civil Service on about 40k. DH has a very tricky Mental illness therefore we don't currently live together but he has 5 DC with ex wife. When he works he is a high earner.

I read on MN all the time about couples living together with dc who are not married and wonder why there is such a disparity between my 'world' and the outside world where cohabitation is prevalent .

Based on the fact that I have had 'kids parents ' around for a quarter of a century - that's a LOT of couples ...I am wondering why my world is so different from the norm - and thinking , is it to do with money /property. ? Surely MC women have the same number of accidental slip ups than anyone else as fertility isn't governed by economic prosperity. Or are the well off more ruthless and feel more able to abort if 'the perfect situation isn't in place'

No judgement either way. I have no religious agenda about marriage and kids - just genuinely interested why I have absolutely no 'living together ' friends , even when a first marriage has ended and there are no more kids. Why do all the families i know, re marry when it's not the norm these days. ?

It cost me £120 and about 1 1/2 hours of time to sort my civil wedding. My first pair of contact lenses was probably more of a hassle.

All those claiming they'll get various legal things sorted without marriage, you may find that obtaining a legal marriage/civil partnership is cheaper than protracted time with solicitors.

@OhMargo There is no such thing as a classless society and Ireland is no exception.

Back to the OP, I think there is still a class element, particularly as the cost of weddings has risen so much.

Yes I agree with this.

We live in a middle class area but are not middle class and we are not married (but people may assume we are as I refer to my partner as husband on the odd occasion around the dc’s friends for this very reason, as it’s the norm to be married and to even to have been married several times).

We didn’t get married as marriage isn’t really the norm in our family. We had no assets when we were first pregnant. Still have no assets now, we rent and live month to month financially. No inheritances for us in the future.

We have non-professional jobs.

We do however desire a middle class schooling and future life for our dc so we live in a desirable middle class location.

I think part of it is an age thing- generalisation is that MC people tend to have careers and have children later and that gives you time and money to get married beforehand. It is also conforming to norms -plus is generally the sensible thing to do.

I work in finance and don't think I know anyone at work currently who has children and is not married (or divorced); ditto at school.
That said I have children and am not married ( and am v middle class!)- I do feel I constantly have to explain- I have a good friend who is a mc (probably upper class) single mother and its hard for her as very few of her peers are in the same position

It’s a well documented sociological phenomenon. I think the theory goes that working class women have children with working class men, and those men have little to offer in terms of financial security. There isn’t really any benefit to marriage.

I'm not married. I own the house we live in. I can't stand my partner most of the time. I'm just biding my time until the youngest child is old enough and then I will end it. I dont want to make that anymore difficult than it needs to be.

And we are working class. He brings not much to the table. Bad credit (can't even get a contract phone) gambler, owns nothing of any value. The only thing he has is a small private pension. He can keep it.

Yes, it’s definitely a well documented phenomenon. Sure there are exceptions, but the evidence supports the trend.

What I find most interesting is not the marriage/no marriage decision because really, there are ways to form an economic
partnership without getting married. The detail that fascinates me is the decision making in terms of acceptable fathers. In one group, the qualifications for being a husband and a father are basically the same. In another group, women will choose to procreate with men that they do not consider as worthy of marriage. If we assume those women are rational agents, then they must be making the right choice for themselves. So the question becomes, for the group that typically eschews marriage are all men who are worthy of marriage also worthy of being fathers or are there some men who possess the qualities that make them ideal candidates for marrying, but not for procreating with?

I've been married thrice [misses point].

First, massive parent led do. Second, small but still acknowledged, third - bare minimum.

Ha! As pp have said, if your man brings nothing material to the party, then there's often not much incentive to get married. I know lots of couples with kids who are "engaged" because it's romantic and they plan to get married one day, but there's no urgency ( and it often never happens before they eventually split up).
I don't know any working class sahm either, all the women I know work (of all classes actually) so marriage doesn't really benefit in that regard, and if they split, well you don't have to have been married to get child support.
Marriage benefits women who earn a lot less than their partner, who plan to take years out of work and who are marrying men who already own property.
Children of single parent might statistically have worse outcomes, but personally I like knowing that I am the captain of my ship and all who sail in her. That makes me feel more stable than any marriage ever could.

Purple artichoke
The detail that fascinates me is the decision making in terms of acceptable fathers. In one group, the qualifications for being a husband and a father are basically the same. In another group, women will choose to procreate with men that they do not consider as worthy of marriage. If we assume those women are rational agents, then they must be making the right choice for themselves.
In fact there was a study years ago that found that women are naturally unlined to find one type of man to impregnate them and a different, more steady type of man to actually help them raise children.
I guess I have done just that really (although i won't marry)

@Graphista - that’s strange that you don’t know anyone unmarried with children in your age group. I’m about the same age but know quite a few.

I do grew there is something to not bothering to marry poor men - maybe that’s why mc marriage rates are higher than wc. That’s not to say poorer men are unworthy to procreate with but there’s no point marrying someone for financial security if they don’t have any money.

Weird thread. I'm definitely very middle class and of my friends who have kids, it's probably a 50/50 split between the marrieds and the cohabiting - quite a few I wouldn't know if they are married or not, it hasn't come up really.

My partner and I aren't married, but we may get a civil partnership at some point in the future. We have a child and a house together. I don't feel we are at all unusual in this.

If this helps, I am 28, married, living in london and do not know a single person who is unmarried with kids. I know divorced with kids, married with kids, married without kids. And that's it.

the only people i know who had kids before marriage was on my budget brides fb group but i didnt know them irl

I got married at 22 and I couldn't afford a big white wedding as I just graduated from university. So I got the civil ceremony done. I saved a deposit to buy our first property and was planning 2 wedding celebrations. Literally 5 years after the civil ceremony. Sadly it's all in the air cos of covid :(

Why can't poorer couples do that? Sign the marriage cert and have the Instagram wedding later on. People find it weird here but it's very common back in Singapore (where I come from) as almost all young couples buy new build flats (which take 3-4 years to build).

Although I think of myself as just me, not categorised into a class box , I'd be interested to know what people might think would suit .
In my years in the planet I've lived in a castle, a boarding school, university hall, a squat, a caravan, a rental, my own home(s) moved lots now have a wide portfolio of rentals and two holiday homes. All this without a handout from family. I've lived with someone, been married was widowed, and have lived alone . My children were borne ( and conceived ) in wedlock .
I don't attend church, or indulge in politics or ask others or disclose my own net worth /earnings etc as I simply think it's impolite.

Am I low middle upper or just me? ( I'm happy with any, but prefer the latter )

Marriage is a prison institution not really happy in mine after 42 years and 3 adult children fed up playing happy families

We live in another part of the country but DH is English. I know very few MC couples (typically grammar school then uni education, professional jobs, homeowners) who live or come from here who have had a baby without marrying. The couples I know who have had babies before marrying all come from a working class background.

Conversely with DH's friends from home we're in the minority in having married before having a baby, despite being from similar backgrounds. A few couples have become engaged after baby was born, but no weddings actually planned as housing costs take priority. The women have also all gone PT or stopped training/pursuing career progression to cover childcare whilst the men are continuing to work FT and do well for themselves.

We obviously live in a more traditional part of the country (DH frequently says we're fifty years behind) but I always find the contrast interesting. The fact the women have said yes to the proposals would suggest that they like the idea of marriage and want to do it, so it's madness to me that so many of them continue to keep themselves in such a vulnerable position rather than trotting down the registry office. There haven't been any breakups in the wider social circle yet, so maybe the risks just aren't that obvious to them.

Whoever said that it’s only the working classes who care what people think, is talking absolute rubbish. Some of the middle classes are desperate to ‘demonstrate’ their ‘middle-classness’ and will put others down at any opportunity they get.

When I lived in the UK and worked in Consultancy, I was told by a public schoolboy colleague that I might have a PhD but I was still just a girl from Birmingham.

I live and work in an very international place - it’s like the United Nations here (and in fact, the UN is just down the road) and the only people I ever encounter who are bothered by my (or anyone else’s) class status, are middle class Brits.

I know 2 couples who aren’t married. No one who’s divorced. One person who’s separated - She’s the only single parent I know. I’m not religious - but parents were.

I always find it fascinating when people choose to label them self as a certain class. I cannot say I have given any thought as to what class we might be considered to be, nor do I care!

I know a couple of parents who decided not to marry, one of them I only discovered recently when they announced they were getting married (kids are grown up, everyone thought they were already married!).

I don't think I know anyone with a set up like yours, so many kids across different marriages etc. I guess you just need to remember that you don't know everyone, so of course you won't come across every possible family set up!

@Graphista

You say It seems the usual misconceptions and lack of understanding of how vulnerable - usually women - are making themselves (and their dc) are present on this thread as tends to happen on marriage v cohabitation threads.

I think this is a bit insulting to women's intelligence (or maybe I just feel insulted!). I am well aware of the financial risks of not marrying in certain circumstances. However, as I explained in my post, my DP and I are both in well-paid jobs. I am not financially dependent on him. The house is in both our names. We have wills. We both chose not to marry.

Most people I know are married or getting married. I dont know anyone who is co cohabiting. I dont know any single mums either.

@MotherofPearl I feel similarly slightly offended 😂

Of all the friends/acquaintances I know who are unmarried with children there aren't any that are sahms or particularly financially "vulnerable" (obviously idk this for sure, but I wouldn't know it if they were married either) or "uneducated".

I only know one unmarried mum who's partner left them when the children were young and she doesn't really fit into any categories as she was born very upper class but fell out with her family and now lives a quite wc lifestyle (doing perfectly well for herself now).

I actually don't know any sahms, married or not, so the Mumsnet community seems very different to what I experience irl

(and when I say "unmarried with children" I mean living with the dad but not married.i only know one single mum and that's the one I mentioned)