In thinking marriage is an institution preferred by the middle class

[disorganisedsecretsquirrel]

and based on economics ?

I will tell you the truth. I know absolutely NO One who Is unmarried with children. Middle class mother of 3. Dc now in early 20s and 18. Live in South East. Work full time in the Civil Service on about 40k. DH has a very tricky Mental illness therefore we don't currently live together but he has 5 DC with ex wife. When he works he is a high earner.

I read on MN all the time about couples living together with dc who are not married and wonder why there is such a disparity between my 'world' and the outside world where cohabitation is prevalent .

Based on the fact that I have had 'kids parents ' around for a quarter of a century - that's a LOT of couples ...I am wondering why my world is so different from the norm - and thinking , is it to do with money /property. ? Surely MC women have the same number of accidental slip ups than anyone else as fertility isn't governed by economic prosperity. Or are the well off more ruthless and feel more able to abort if 'the perfect situation isn't in place'

No judgement either way. I have no religious agenda about marriage and kids - just genuinely interested why I have absolutely no 'living together ' friends , even when a first marriage has ended and there are no more kids. Why do all the families i know, re marry when it's not the norm these days. ?

I know an unmarried couple with children, where the man is a high earning lawyer and another where the man is a doctor. It's not that rare for the middle class any more...

Meant to add an interesting thread topic nevertheless

May be possible there is a correlation between those who are university educated and then go in to the professions or other stable jobs, and marriage. As my username suggests, I'm a university student, from a stable middle class background, and I would estimate 90-95% of my peers are from the same demographic make up. All the data suggests that being brought up in a married two parent household is one of the best indicators for future prospects in nearly all measures, be it education or health. Not sure what the exact stat is, but its certainly over 80% of men in prison were brought up in single parent households. Obviously there will be plenty of great sole parents, but at a population level, there are a litany of benefits, a recent one being that as houses are so incredibly expensive, you absolutely need two good incomes, and if you want kids, having help of grandparents is going to make this easier. In addition to this our abilities are normally distributed, and i suspect that will have some sort of genetic component.

That's interesting FloconDeNeige , an May I ask you - do you have children and would/did you of have them before marriage or after

From most of the replies on here it is beginning to look like higher education AND socio economic factors are the big decider.

@disorganisedsecretsquirrel I’m 30 :)

The day I decided to marry for pension reasons, would be a disastrous day for my self esteem. Under the classic scheme my children will receive my pension.

Does it not strike you as perverse that you have to be married in those circumstances. It strikes me as discriminatory in the extreme.

Marriage means different things to different people. For me, having a relationship and indeed children with someone, does not mean that I feel the need to marry them.

I'm middle-ish class (comfortable but not well off), south-east, have a child, been together 14 years, unmarried. We've done all the legal stuff to connect our finances etc. I know two other unmarried couples in similar situations.

Very middle class mum of 2 DC here. Not married by choice after 20 years together, life long romantic aversion to it. I want to be with DP because I love him. Not for a legal obligation. Also a feminist dislike of the marriage trappings.

But I guess with 2 kids & 4 mortgages as well as a lot of love we may as well be married for how hard it would be to disengage.

My guess is if you know me at the school gates you assume I'm married.

For what it's worth it we have a plan to marry to stop us owing huge amounts of tax if one of us dies. But haven't got round to it.

Well start off with the ridiculous pressure people put themselves under financially for a wedding. If you’re stable financially this is completely doable. For many people there’s no point in even attempting a 5-20k commitment on a wedding. So yes on that one alone, getting married is easier for the MC

It's not essential to spend a lot on a wedding. Marriage is about the legal commitment, not a big party. Civil partnership is now available too, and will provide the same legal protections. If an unmarried couple have children together and one earns either nothing or much less than the other, that person is vulnerable if they split up as s/he will have no claim on the other partner's assets/income, except for child maintenance. Marriage gives the less wealthy partner some protection. This is something people should think about before putting themselves into a very vulnerable position.

Also, if you live with someone and have children together, surely you want to be the one taking the decisions about their medical care if they're not able to, or, if they die, about the funeral. Sadly the blood relatives sometimes take over in these circumstances, to the great distress of the unmarried partner. In this country the NHS would probably treat an unmarried partner as the next of kin, but that wouldn't necessarily apply in all countries of the world.

Finally, if you haven't got round to making a will, your unmarried partner will get absolutely nothing when you die unless your blood relatives choose to give him/her something. This would include all your personal effects. Making a will is the best answer here, but when a married person dies intestate the widow/er will get everything (or in the case of a big estate a big chunk, with the children getting the rest).

If your estate is above £325k not being married is a very expensive principle to hold. Fine if under that tax wise

@disorganisedsecretsquirrel

Yes, we have two toddlers, born after we got married. Almost all my working class family & friends had children after getting married too. Only one couple are unmarried with children and they’ve always both been firmly against it. These people are very varied educationally; some only have GCSEs and others have doctorates.

I live SE. I am working class but hold an MA and have a professional role. Been with oh 20 odd years and have 3 dc, no intention of getting married. I know several MC couples in a similar situation

The Class structure in UK is awful.

Many are obsessed with it and frame their lives around either joining it or objecting to it too.

But anyway, good thread, interesting views too.

2018:

“Marriages between men and women hit lowest rate on record. High cost as well as growing number of people prioritising education, house-buying and travel, attributed for the drop.”

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/marriages-men-women-lowest-record-heterosexual-lgbt-ons-a8232751.html%3famp

Thank you FlacoDeNiege

I am off to my bed now for a bit of shut eye as up at 5:50 this morning ..

Again many thanks to everyone who has contributed to an interesting and above all ADULT conversation. It has made me really enjoy MN for the first time in ages. So sick of the childish nitpicking and trolling. When I know there are so many thoughtful , interesting and intelligent women on here who can hold a decent conversation.
Good night folks, stay healthy and if you want to continue the debate I will be back in the morning.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g - Are wills really that solid though?
I always wonder this when you see yet another will successfully challenged at court after the person who made the will has died
However, I'm willing to accept that that aspect of wills makes the news everytime just because it is so rare?

Oh God @OhMargo, you’re absolutely right, it’s revolting. One of the reasons I married a foreigner and left!

Single parenthood is the most reliable path to poverty there is, always has been, still is.

Unmarried couples with children usually split up - contrary to what you'll read on MN. This might not change your class status, but it will make you poor if you've got residency.

Married couples don't split as much when they've got DC. So yes, marriage is good economically for women and more likely to keep/make them middle class.

I agree Broadly speaking MC - married before DC, WC have DC when unmarried, some marry later.

It’s taboo but it’s often the different attitude to abortion.

I do think that the MC like to adhere to the rules and conform. I'm MC and also only know of two separated parents. Being married is definitely the norm in my circle. I'm also a huge lover of rules and regulations (as long as people follow them).

Haha - me too re rules @TiddlestheCat

FloconDeNeige

I also married out as they say, an Irish man, they don't care about that kind of stuff at all.

Works for me!

MC or want to be MC people want to keep up with the Jones'.. And tend to get divorced within 10 yrs. The children of these parents will be less likely to want to be married as they've lived through how awful divorce is etc.

It is age related too in some ways though, in that younger women tend to have had more opportunities for uni and successful careers etc and therefore marriage isn't useful for security, as they can stand on their own two feet.

Younger people also tend not to be as religious.

I would consider my husband and I middle class now as we both have Phd's, have our own home in a desirable area and have good careers. Well, before I had our little baby I was an manager for a local council now I am a SAHM whilst DH provides for me and our child. My husband and I are the only ones in our generation to get married, buy a house and then have a child. All my family in particular (from a migrant community) have had children outside of marriage and none own their own home or have professional jobs. I was in my thirties before getting married and decided that if I didn't get married I wouldn't have children. I am a practising Christian and a romantic so I wanted the big white wedding which I had.I am often treated differently by family due to our different lifestyle choices and "class", so my DH age moved away to have a fresh start. Furthermore, it was so important to us that our child was conceived within a loving marriage and we all had the same last names, we wanted our child to have a good start without being judged or stereotypes being made e.g type of background ones from.

@OhMargo mine’s French!