In thinking marriage is an institution preferred by the middle class

[disorganisedsecretsquirrel]

and based on economics ?

I will tell you the truth. I know absolutely NO One who Is unmarried with children. Middle class mother of 3. Dc now in early 20s and 18. Live in South East. Work full time in the Civil Service on about 40k. DH has a very tricky Mental illness therefore we don't currently live together but he has 5 DC with ex wife. When he works he is a high earner.

I read on MN all the time about couples living together with dc who are not married and wonder why there is such a disparity between my 'world' and the outside world where cohabitation is prevalent .

Based on the fact that I have had 'kids parents ' around for a quarter of a century - that's a LOT of couples ...I am wondering why my world is so different from the norm - and thinking , is it to do with money /property. ? Surely MC women have the same number of accidental slip ups than anyone else as fertility isn't governed by economic prosperity. Or are the well off more ruthless and feel more able to abort if 'the perfect situation isn't in place'

No judgement either way. I have no religious agenda about marriage and kids - just genuinely interested why I have absolutely no 'living together ' friends , even when a first marriage has ended and there are no more kids. Why do all the families i know, re marry when it's not the norm these days. ?

Literally everyone we know is married (middle class professional I guess the demographic) except one couple who are right on labour mp types 😁

@MsTSwift maybe it's the leftyness then! My social circle is middle class but all pretty left (not that I want to turn this into a party political discussion!)

I am working class. We have been married 20 years. I know loads of unmarried couples. My brother has been with his partner over 25 years and never married. I know more unmarried couples than married in the under 30 bracket.

I'm married with kids but lots of our friends have kids but are not married - including colleagues (I work in a nice civil service type place). Incomes are mostly £30-60 K, so not poor but not well off, exactly. Probably the more relevant factor is that most of our friends have an arts/music background, which might make them less conventional. Some of them have got married at the age of 50, long after having their kids.

It's an interesting thread, OP - I like my slightly rackety friends but I also like the sound of your more solid world

@KnobwithaK good point - 100% of our friends are lefties

I am middle class early 30s (in London), but had children in my 20s. Of the families I know of a similar age / demographic to me, it's quite common to not be married despite having children. Around 40% of couples with children I know are unmarried, or married a few years after having children. A lot of people are thinking about marriage later, kids first. We got married once our house value reached more than the inheritance tax threshold, 8 years after having our first child.

I think it's more about how you grew up, in my family there was a very clear order to how things 'were supposed' to be.

You date
You get married
You live together
You have children

It wasn't about sex, there was no restriction or poor view of pre-marital sex, it was more about sharing of assets and children. My mum told me a few times how important it was to be married before having children because if someone wasn't willing to commit to you forever you shouldn't tie yourself to them for 18+ years through a child.

I met my husband when I was 16, dated for 6 years, got married and moved in together, bought our own house, then had our first (and only) child when I was 30 after establishing my career.

I was an 'unmarried mother' but unusual I think, I am mostly in MC area. We split up when kids were young. I think there is still an expectation that marriage comes before kids but I do know more people in their 20s now who are having kids first. The young women I know who have had kids unmarried have their own businesses and assets so maybe feel better not to risk that by getting married.

Just to add, we didn't have a wedding, we got married in Vegas, just me and DH then had a small pub party after. It was never about a wedding for us it was always about a marriage, we couldn't afford and didn't want a big do, all in, our holiday to Vegas, wedding, clothes..... was £1600.

Love the way this thread has grown and new theories have developed.

I have to confess that I think you are right in regard to the politics. In my 'everyone I know is married' world, the huge majority are typically espouse a liberal/socialist agenda yet there has never been anything other than a conservative MP elected. For me, this demonstrates an underlying wish (need ?) for that awful word 'traditional values' even when day to concerns are much less conservative.

There is also the question of societal pressure. My parents would not have 'disowned' me if I had had children outside marriage. However there would have been a LOT of arguing and none too subtle 'encouragement' not to proceed with the pregnancy. There would certainly not have been any enthusiasm for an out of marriage pregnancy. Although a grandchild would undoubtedly be loved regardless.

If you are married before having children - would your family/friends have expressed any opinion if you had decided to have DC without marriage. ?

I don’t think marriage matters quite as much to younger people nowadays. I teach young adults from all different backgrounds and once got onto a discussion about marriage with one particular class. Only a couple of them seemed keen to marry one day, the others thought it was a waste of time.

@Graphista

Jeez let me answer those one at a time.
The higher earner has changed a bunch. Sometimes it was me, sometimes him. Right now due to all this it's pretty much neither of us.
Nobody has taken time off for the kids because I only have one and he's 3 months old so I'm still on maternity, but in the future it would really depend on how sick and if we could get family to look after him or not.
Our home is rented in both our names.
We do not have a joint bank account.
And we're too poor for life cover or anything like that.
I think you're underestimating how much money we do not have.
We're pretty much in a situation where it's virtually impossible to have less money. It sucks but that's how it is. We were in a good position just before the baby came but circumstances can change quicker than people realise.

Must be nice to be homeowners with spare income but we're just not there at the moment. We couldn't afford the cheapest of weddings.

Still, like I said, I'm not particularly bothered about it.
I know my circumstances must seem bizarre to some posters here, all I can say is they're very fortunate, and there's nothing wrong with that.

That's interesting Umnoway I am a BIG advocate of relationship advice at school - for both sexes. I don't mean some sort of twee sex education but the nitty gritty of the contract. The rights (and lack of them) for those who are married or decide on cohabitation. So that life choices can be made with full knowledge of the pros and cons for both parties.

I m in my 20s and definitely working class, I m married and one of my friends are, most of the others live with their partners some of which are engaged and a couple may not get married.
I m as atheist as they come, it's just something I d always wanted to do and the extra legal rights are appreciated but I can understand why people my age wouldn't want to spend their money on weddings when it's challenging for many of them to afford houses these days, we re lucky to live in a cheap city so got a house reasonably young after we got married but house would come before a wedding for a lot of people.

Im not married and come from a middle class family. Im living in sin instead!
Seriously ...for me it's because i had a seriously abusive relationship as a teen and didn't meet the right men afterwards..plus my parents didn't get on.
I am engaged now but tbh i don't need a piece of paper or a ring to tell the world i adore dp.
I think people who see marriage as morally superior are horrid tbh. It is not. More secure perhaps but marriage should not be entered in to lightly as it's the done thing.

@1990shopefulftm could people just register their marriage and then plan their wedding after they buy the house? Thats what I did. Unfortunately with london property prices and covid, I have been married since 2015, would probably be celebrating my 5th wedding anniversary under lockdown and have no idea when my two weddings would happen as they were set for this year.

Graphista - just wanted to thank you for your post. Especially enjoyed your argument against those who see marriage as ant-feminist . You make many excellent points.

It's definitely true that marriage correlates increasingly with income, class and education level: www.google.com/amp/s/amp.economist.com/special-report/2017/11/23/marriage-in-the-west

I think there are all kinds of reasons. More highly educated women and girls probably are more likely to be careful with contraception and to terminate if they get unexpectedly pregnant, because they have more to lose from taking a hit to their education/capacity to work. As they used to say, ambition is the best contraceptive. Women with higher independent earning capacity also potentially have more power to expect and demand marriage as a prerequisite to having DC, and to have seen in their own families/social circles how marriage has provided a sound financial basis for their own families. I certainly had the message from my parents that having DC was a very serious decision, and to be made carefully and only with someone who was prepared to commit to me for life. And although I'm not religious, that makes perfect sense to me - if I and a man are not willing to say that we're all in together for life, why would I take the huge personal risk of having his DC, with all the associated risks and vulnerabilities to me?

@Desiringonlychild I know one engaged set of friends who already own a home will probably just go to the registry office at some point but the £300 just for that and giving notice I think some would rather keep for house costs first.

@malificent7 i think its more an issue if there are children and a property involved. and to be fair, there are probably very few couples out there who have been together for 15 years and have no children and no shared property. And once you get the child and the guy refuses to marry you, then you are kinda stuck because you know he can leave any time without the legal formalities of divorce. But I think its not fair to just blame the guy though, I told DH that I don't date (or sleep with men) unless there is at least a high chance that we would get married. So he knew when he entered into our relationship that we would get married.If marriage is important, then don't get into a relationship with the guy if he can't promise marriage.

Interesting one. We are mid 40, been together for 25+ years, one child, both graduated/phd and in professional jobs. Never married as not interested.
Most of our friends, similar backgrounds, are married but we do have also friends who are not married (we know two couples, very similar to us: long term partners, one child, well educated, great jobs etc).

Malificent7
I thought the whole concept that 'marriage is just a piece of paper' had been thoroughly debunked. Do you not see it that way ?

Most couples I know are married.. but with DH in the Army, most of my friends being Forced Wives or Servicewomen, the financial implications/social implications of marriage Vs cohabitation are greater. (Pensions, access to housing, accompanying of foreign postings etc). Although there are recent changes to recognising unmarried couples, they are still not seen in the same way, and it looks a lot simpler to just pop down the to the Register Office than the providing proof of relationship.

I do know a few people who have actively chosen not to be married, and thing it would be wrong for them to be legally presumed married just because they have lived together for years and have children together.

@disorganisedsecretsquirrel

Marriage is a piece of paper though. It may have government benefits and some people put some social significance on it but in the end it is a piece of paper.
Not trying to be dismissive, it's just not everyone puts the same importance on being married.
Literally everyone I know thinks it isn't a big deal.

As part of my work I have to have the iht conversation. Higher income unmarried couples often get upset / angry when they realise they or rather their kids will be paying thousands in additional tax on death. Most get married.