In thinking marriage is an institution preferred by the middle class

[disorganisedsecretsquirrel]

and based on economics ?

I will tell you the truth. I know absolutely NO One who Is unmarried with children. Middle class mother of 3. Dc now in early 20s and 18. Live in South East. Work full time in the Civil Service on about 40k. DH has a very tricky Mental illness therefore we don't currently live together but he has 5 DC with ex wife. When he works he is a high earner.

I read on MN all the time about couples living together with dc who are not married and wonder why there is such a disparity between my 'world' and the outside world where cohabitation is prevalent .

Based on the fact that I have had 'kids parents ' around for a quarter of a century - that's a LOT of couples ...I am wondering why my world is so different from the norm - and thinking , is it to do with money /property. ? Surely MC women have the same number of accidental slip ups than anyone else as fertility isn't governed by economic prosperity. Or are the well off more ruthless and feel more able to abort if 'the perfect situation isn't in place'

No judgement either way. I have no religious agenda about marriage and kids - just genuinely interested why I have absolutely no 'living together ' friends , even when a first marriage has ended and there are no more kids. Why do all the families i know, re marry when it's not the norm these days. ?

FloconDeNeige

Oh la la, j'espere que vous etes HAPPY!

This confinement is doing my head in, apologies, but it is meant well.

My OH just says "Jaysus are you on that site again talking shyte".. ha ha.

Best wishes.

My situation is totally different - middle class - doctors, barristers, company directors etc. Most not married but have kids - most met late 20s/early 30s independently financially secure so don’t feel need to get married. I have a house separate to my partner - as does he. And we own a house together. Been together 10 years and not that bothered about getting married to be honest.

A lot of people go through phases of each though.

Many get married, half of these get divorced. Then some get remarried and out of these some get divorced. It goes on, and of course some never get married and stay together, some don't.
I'm wc with family, friends, colleagues, from both wc and mc families. I haven't noticed a difference apart from sometimes the mc couple are married before children. Whereas wc are usually after their first before their second child. I've noticed this quite a few times.

Probably the bigger trend i see in the young middle class professionals I know is just not to have kids.

I think it can also depend on the circumstances of your friends. My DH was widowed ridiculously young when his first wife died. His friends all witnessed the stresses and strains that came from that, they realised it could be even more difficult if they were unmarried and several have said that it is one of the reasons they decided to get married. I think that's also why the vast majority of that group have their wills sorted.

On the other hand in my friendship group the first of us to marry was absolutely destroyed financially by her husband when he left her. It made a few of the high earning women in the group extremely wary of marrying.

My friends are about half and half married / not married.

Not delineated by class. They are a mix of working class and middle, with wealthy and struggling in both groups.

What you could say about my friends is that there are very few / almost no SAHMs. None of the married women have changed their names. A high proportion of the kids have their mothers surname or else are hyphenated. In lots of the mixed sex couples the woman is the higher earner.

A lot are artists / musicians / work in theatre etc.

A lot are

We live in a Scottish village and have two teens. I know 3 unmarried families with children the same age as ours. One both parents are teachers. The other one partner a pharmacist. The other couple both artists. So fairly MC. I also have a step son who has been married before but is not married to current partner although they have a child together and have bought a house several years ago. He's a teacher and has no intention of getting married a second time.

I don't fit the general mumsnet perception of middle class, but neither do I come from the type of background that is upper class in the real world.

I got pregnant just after I graduated, and was a lone parent before meeting dp. He had dsd in his mid twenties. I didn't need to worry about getting on the housing ladder or finding a man to support me, and I certainly didn't, and don't give a fuck about trying to conform to someone else's definition of mc, so I did what suited me.

We don't need marriage from a religious or legal pov, and we're not financially dependent on each other. Raising our respective dc together as a family is far more significant to us both as proof of commitment than some jewellery and a certificate.

There's absolutely no logical reason we would choose to spend so much time, effort and money for something we consider pointless.

Most of the mums I know from my dd's school are married. One is in the process of getting divorced and I know one of the dad's is divorced and with a new partner but not married. I'm not married to my partner. I don't know what class I am originally, a low one I suppose, but as a family I'd say we are middle class probably if it's based on income and stuff. I don't really know enough about class to say.

That's interesting FloconDeNeige , an May I ask you - do you have children and would/did you of have them before marriage or after

From most of the replies on here it is beginning to look like higher education AND socio economic factors are the big decider.

I really think it's this and of course in many cases the impact of this is parental contributions.

I'm from a working class single parent background as are cousins (and of course siblings). Those of us who married pre-children all went to university and have a career. The few that didn't are the single parents on low income.

To the previous poster who commented that they are the ones who would benefit the most is likely right. Although in my families cases they are women who have children with more than one father and had children in non settled relationships so marriage was never an option and given the men they had children with it really wouldn't have mattered.

I'm mid 30s and know a few unmarried Mc couples from my age group. The women in these relationships all want to be married but the man hasn't agreed or finances have stopped this so thry have a plan in the future to marry ( never setting dates etc). All the females have incidentally been nurses. Males have jobs of a similar standing.

It appears more common in younger age group than mine. I'd say 25 -35yo. couples I know from those age ranges seem less bothered with marriage.

Most of my friends are middle class - doctors and lawyers. All married before having children. Nobody is divorced. Not one couple. We’re in our 40s.

So your middle class experience of divorces, 2nd and 3rd marriages and a husband having so many children with different women is very very different from my middle class experience.

Lucky you weren’t being judgmental I suppose!

Class status in UK is going to lead to trouble.

So someone from a "lower class" who gets a PhD or whatever will never be in the cohort of middle class. Rubbish.

And as for the Upper Classes, well honestly, just look at JRM and people like him. Would anyone like to emulate him?

I think UK are in awe of those they perceive to be above them somehow. Need to get over that shyte. Stat.

Marriage is a legal institution to ensure fairness in the distribution of property. If you're not rich enough to have any property between you, why bother getting married?

Marriage is also a commitment device, something thought-through and planned. It's the instant gratification theory. Less educated people are also less planned, more chaotic, less likely to choose healthy food, less likely to 'wait to eat the marshmallow'. In all areas of their lives they seek instant gratification.

It’s always been the case that the poorest people in society are less bothered by social and moral norms such as legal marriage.

Failed relationships lead to poverty poverty leads to failed relationships. A mutually reinforcing cycle.

My hairdresser has three children with their partner but isn't married. They said that it's too much commitment

Personally, I see having three children as more of a commitment but it shows how different ppl view marriage

@OhMargo again, that depends on whether you are defining class by qualifications and income, and to a lesser extent whether you perceive working class to be inferior or something that you need to get away from.

If I acquire a title and a stately home tomorrow, I still won't be upper class. And if I'd left school at 16 with no qualifications I wouldn't have become working class.

I do genuinely believe it's only the lower middle classes that seem to care about which class they are perceived as, and try to live and strive to match the criteria they personally believe defines it. Nobody else gives a fuck ime.

@disorganisedsecretsquirrel @chickenyhead you can nominate a partner for your civil service pension.

Middle class, middle aged, both working, not married, 2 children, not strange in my circle.

I think social norms around you are far better predictor of married/not than education/income/class. Particularly your own experience of marriage in your immediate family. And how much status is conferred by compliance with majority culture norms.

My parents divorced, were unfaithful etc after 20 years of marriage. Other friends of my generation who didn't marry also had no expectations of marriage being an essential criteria of happy family life.

And I can't think of anyone I know with happily married parents or a very conventional upbringing who were in a commited relationship who didn't get married.

Children of old hippies or divorce, not so much

That said, as we have got more "comfortable", I do start worrying about the financial implications and we may get married for that reason. But it will be absolute legal minimum!

Is it more about ideology than class? I am 50’s, dp is early 60’s. We’ve been together over 25 years. I’m very middle class and very educated. He’s working class and very educated. All his friends are married, mine are about 50/50. I come from a large family and only 50% of my siblings are married.

@Griefmonster we’ve actually been thinking about marriage recently just in case one of us dies through Covid. But it would be convenience only

TrainspottingWelsh

Class is rubbish, but it will be with us forever. Some have to jump the shark.

UK is obsessed with class, it is abhorrent to me, but it exists in spades just the same.

It’s always been the case that the poorest people in society are less bothered by social and moral norms such as legal marriage.

Social and moral norms are almost always driven by a desire to protect what is 'yours' (at a personal or community level) from outsiders. Property, it's 9/10ths of the law.

I think UK are in awe of those they perceive to be above them somehow. Need to get over that shyte. Stat.

Not my mindset. We all shit out of the same shaped hole.

I’m from a very working class background. I also used to work in the wedding industry.

I don’t think it’s different attitudes to marriage at heart, I think it’s economics of a different kind - the perception (which has been MASSIVELY driven up by sm imo based on the working in the industry aspect) that an Instagram
Perfect white wedding is the only acceptable wedding to have.

And as it’s generally people in their 20’s and 30’s marrying for the first time they are more influenced by the sm aspect.

Older couples, those marrying for the 2nd (3rd, 4th... time - yes really I’ve been involved once with someone marrying for the 6th time...to her 2nd husband!) tend to not be so dazzled by the idea of a fancy and expensive wedding.

On a personal note, the first wedding I attended that was a friend getting married rather than an older relative was a “shotgun” job! I think people especially those much younger than my generation (I’m 47) forget/don’t realise that not being married when you had a baby was still very much looked down in many parts of the Uk until the 90’s!

Openly cohabiting and especially not marrying before having children is a very recent phenomenon.

Out of my friends that are my age or not much younger I can’t think of any that didn’t marry at least before having children if they cohabited at all.

I didn’t live with my ex before we married and that was normal for both of us. I’d been clear from the start of the relationship that I wouldn’t consider a committed relationship and certainly not children without marriage first.

I had an interesting personal reason in that I had seen a relative “widowed” young and completely financially screwed over due to the lack of being legally married. I often reference this on the marriage vs cohabitation threads.

But actually almost everyone I know of my age did the same.

With the exception funnily enough of my sister. Her ex was staunchly against marriage due to being traumatised (?) by his own parents divorce in his teens (I always felt it was an excuse and to be honest he did that thing a lot of younger men now seem to do of happily cohabiting with my sister and her having his dc only for him to sod off with a younger model who he married within a year! But he’s older than me)

It saddens and angers me to see and read of many younger (I’d say under 35’s certainly under 30’s) women being fobbed off by their “partners” when marriage is raised.

Especially when those women have children and either go part time at work or become Sahm with zero financial security for them and their dc, not only in the event of a split, but also if their partner were to become incapacitated or even to die, which in the current crisis is particularly relevant.

I know a very very few couples cohabiting with children who aren’t married and in every single case it’s the man who doesn’t want to marry. In a few of those cases the woman is a sahm/part time worker and I find it really awkward as I’d love to say to them “do you realise how vulnerable you and the dc are?!” But then I suspect they may already know.

I’ve drummed into dd not to become financially dependent on a man, not to make her and any dc vulnerable.

One of her friends just the other day shared a Facebook thing about marriage ISN’T just a piece of paper too (her dad wouldn’t marry her mum, they split a few years back and the mum was left in dire straits not least because the dad - self employed of course - basically buggered off without a backward glance and doesn’t pay cm, the family home was his and he basically kicked them all out) and it got a lot of likes from my dds generation.

To explain, where I live most of the mums of dds friends her age are a lot younger than me as for here I was an older mum.

I think because they’ve seen their mums screwed over they’re recognising the issues and so the pendulum is swinging back to marriage being more in favour.

“do you think the prevalence of marriage is more to do with
Age
Culture
Religion
Society you associate with (peers)
Or Economics”

I think you missed a major factor - EDUCATION!

Better educated women tend to be more aware of the ramifications of not being married.

“I don't think any other class is that bothered about how other people perceive them.”

As someone from a working class, catholic background I completely disagree with that!

And where I live now is my parents home town sort of and as a large proportion of the community is culturally if not practicing Catholic marriage before babies is very much still considered the ideal.

@iStressheadi

Who’s the higher earner in your relationship? Who takes time off when the kids are sick? Is the family home rented or owned? and in who’s name? What about personal finances? Do you have a joint bank account? Do you have critical illness cover and life assurance? Wills?

Seriously splitting up is the LEAST of it, where you’re most vulnerable if you’re remotely dependent on your partner financially is if he becomes disabled or dies.

Money is certainly a factor in why I'm not married marriage and expensive weddings are 2 completely separate things.

@MotherOfPearl marriage/weddings were co-opted by religion - for financial reasons!

At heart and historically marriage is a legal and financial agreement. It’s only very recently in human history it’s had anything to do with romance and relatively recently related to religion.

You don’t have to have religion remotely involved in getting married.

It seems the usual misconceptions and lack of understanding of how vulnerable - usually women - are making themselves (and their dc) are present on this thread as tends to happen on marriage v cohabitation threads.

@waxonwaxoff you know I’m not a wealthy person by any means! The benefits system also works better for you if you marry especially in the event of a bereavement.

Also a feminist dislike of the marriage trappings

🙄

I’m tempted to start playing marriage v cohabitation thread bingo!

How do you reconcile such a view with the FACT that not being married mainly disadvantages wormen? Especially mothers?

Do you have a bank account? A mortgage? Any number of societal constructs are rooted if not still currently inextricably governed by patriarchy.

Not marrying because it’s “anti feminist” is the very definition of cutting your nose off!