In thinking marriage is an institution preferred by the middle class

[disorganisedsecretsquirrel]

and based on economics ?

I will tell you the truth. I know absolutely NO One who Is unmarried with children. Middle class mother of 3. Dc now in early 20s and 18. Live in South East. Work full time in the Civil Service on about 40k. DH has a very tricky Mental illness therefore we don't currently live together but he has 5 DC with ex wife. When he works he is a high earner.

I read on MN all the time about couples living together with dc who are not married and wonder why there is such a disparity between my 'world' and the outside world where cohabitation is prevalent .

Based on the fact that I have had 'kids parents ' around for a quarter of a century - that's a LOT of couples ...I am wondering why my world is so different from the norm - and thinking , is it to do with money /property. ? Surely MC women have the same number of accidental slip ups than anyone else as fertility isn't governed by economic prosperity. Or are the well off more ruthless and feel more able to abort if 'the perfect situation isn't in place'

No judgement either way. I have no religious agenda about marriage and kids - just genuinely interested why I have absolutely no 'living together ' friends , even when a first marriage has ended and there are no more kids. Why do all the families i know, re marry when it's not the norm these days. ?

@StayinginSummer sorry you're having a rough time, do you have support?

@FloconDeNeige another snobby, prejudiced post about those of us on benefits! Absolutely no call for such nastiness

@tilder ime while divorce is hardly a breeze it's easier than separation as the rules are clear. The people I know who didn't marry and then separated found it much harder to sort everything out and to get anything approaching fair treatment from their ex

but just pointing out that a cheap service is £50 not £1000 I agree. But minimum cost in Uk is stated as £120. It's £125 where I live for the absolute minimum legal requirements.

I know couples who've done just that, popped along in lunch break or at most on a day off, in clothes they already own and pulled in friends/colleagues as witnesses and then gone straight back to work or at most gone for a regular pub lunch after.

When you look at those who married in wwii the big white wedding idea went out the window for many as necessity. Both my grans married wearing simple suits and without much pomp & ceremony. Admittedly largely as these were also "shotgun" jobs! Where they had to organise quickly as grandas were soon to be heading back to the war front. Both weddings midweek while grandas had 48 hour leaves. There was the ability to expedite licenses at that time due to the war.

The craziness of the wedding industry has imo got WAY out of hand!

Photo booths, ice cream vans, sweetie booths, getting married in bloody castles with an orchestra! - all completely unnecessary!

People need to be more sensible and practical.

You can still have a beautiful wedding without spending a fortune on Instagram bollocks.

@Bubbletrouble43 if you wanted a "do" but on a budget there are a number of ways to do so. Avoid the usual "wedding merchandisers" like the plague, perhaps if you have a nice garden yourself or someone in the family does and doesn't mind hosting you could do something as simple as a bbq or picnic after?

I've been involved in planning such weddings, it's absolutely possible and they usually if not always work very well and everyone has a great time.

The ones where guests are involved in some way (willingly of course) have an amazing collaborative and intimate feel. People love being part of something special.

@IfNotNowThenWhenever I'm not saying it's right for everyone but you asserted it was ONLY suitable for

women who earn a lot less than their partner, who plan to take years out of work and who are marrying men who already own property.

Which is not true.

Have you actually had dealings with the csa/cms?

Because I did for 16 years! Yes my ex dodged paying as much as he could but it was harder for him to do so than if we'd not been married. It's also quicker and easier to start the claim if you'd been married.

My sisters ex has never paid a penny and she had a real job even getting the claim started

And that's been my experience or rather the experience of those I know pursuing ex's for child support following divorce and separation. The ones that had been married had it easier.

I'm not saying that's right not at all, I'm saying that's how it actually is though!

@YetAnotherSpartacus That might be true -

I also refused to give up my career and financial independence because I knew this was the main cause of women's poverty, not the failure to marry.

With regard to separation, when it comes to critical illness and death not being married can be a major problem and in the current crisis I'm thinking of women with partners at high risk of covid are also at high risk of financial difficulty if sadly their partner dies.

Particularly as even after the immediate crisis the economy is going to be screwed for ages!

@Tollergirl what about IHT wrt your house? Is that likely to be an issue?

I have no problem with people remaining unmarried if they would be ok in the event of separation, critical illness or death of their partner. But that applies to very few people.

Where I've referred to lack of knowledge it's in relation to mistaken beliefs including but not limited to

It's only a piece of paper
It's anti feminist
I'll be covered by "common law marriage"
I earn more than him (but without consideration of other factors)

@Graphista - I believe that civil partnership has the same protection for Inheritance tax as marriage and if I'm completely honest that is one of the reasons that we plan to enter into the civil partnership. If it weren't for this I think we'd probably carry on as we are. As for death, critical illness etc, you can nominate partner on life insurance policies- we have done so. Admittedly, as you say, legal issues are easier if you are married but many things are possible if you research and ensure your affairs are in order, as it were. I have wondered, over the years, if I would feel any differently if we were married and I don't think I would but obviously that's just speculation. I didn't particularly like using "partner " for a long time, if I'm honest, but I've got used to it now. Similarly I don't have the same surname as my DC - they have their dad's surname partly because mine is French and a bugger to spell! I used to hate it as a child because no one could pronounce or spell it and maybe that's why I didn't inflict it on them. As I've got older, I've come to love having an unusual name and wouldn't relinquish it for anything - kind of a bit sad that I didn't include it in their names somewhere along the line but hey-ho! I certainly don't feel any less like their mother because we don't share a surname- maybe I'm just less bothered about what others think - just in relation to other threads that have said I couldn't bear to have a different name to my children. Sorry for the digression there.

I'm 30ish and most of my friends are late 20s to mid 30s.

Only a couple of them are married and they're generally the ones without children - I have LOTS of friends with kids but they're almost all either single or still together but not married! The only two married couples with children I know both had weddings completely paid for by their parents which might have been a factor.

For me I'd assume the people who wanted children did it before they were thinking about marriage and now they have children either they can't spare the expense of getting married OR they feel committed enough with a mortgage and children that they don't feel the 'need' to.

In the north west, and a mix of working class and what I'd call lower middle class (? - comfortable financially in that they own (or will own soon) houses, have 1 or 2 foreign holidays a year, nice cars, but not like, shopping at Boden and taking the children to Steiner schools).

I'm neither married nor have children, although I'm in a long term relationship. We've considered getting married but it's just a lot of money (OH would like A Wedding for various reasons, I would like to do the paperwork in case one of us gets ill) so we'll do it at some point. We don't want children though, so fits with my experiences again!

@Graphista - sorry forgot to say that I completely agree with the hysteria around weddings (as I mentioned in my earlier post.) I would like my daughters to aspire to personal fulfilment and if they choose, a loving and fulfilling relationship with another person but I would hate for them to think that their worth is tied up in them having been proposed to, and being 'a princess for a day"!!!

I think it's definitely part of the MC expectations. It's not necessarily a 'rule' as such but it would have been unusual among my peers not to have gone to university for example.

It's the same kind of thing with marriage, it's not frowned upon if you're not married but it's the usual path to buy a house/get married/have children.

My social group are all married home-owning professionals in late 30s with two children- very boring really! I suppose part of it is that we all live in our own bubble so what we know tends to mirror our own situation.

Most people I know aren't married. I'm 27 and live in a less affluent area. My parents were unmarried and the result was that my father left us without a backwards glance until it suited him. My experience drove me to want to be married. Married at 22. First DC at 27. I'm definitely the exception to the rule here though.

Have you actually had dealings with the csa/cms?
Yes, CSA, but not CMS.

I think the details around bereavement benefits should be made more well known, especially for those with children. I know a few people who were shocked when it was discussed that someone unmarried wouldn’t get any bereavement benefits.

Whilst they’ve been slashed, if you are on a low income and you lose your other half under pension age and you have kids that lump sum and the £350 a month for 18 months could make a big difference in the transition period as you get used to a loss of their wage or deal with the benefits system.

We're married & middle-class, our children will probably be more upper-middle, I don't think I know anyone who is not married. I occasionally meet boho-aristo types at parties who are unmarried with children, but not in my immediate circle.

@Graphista
Great Post and the more personal, simple do is what we will probably go for. Sorry if I've failed to @ you properly, it's my first attempt 😂
Would like to add though that similar to pp I think marriage would leave me worse off should divorce occur (as I owned our home before DP moved in) so maybe that's why I am procrastinating!

I know more married couples than unmarried. Whether they are happily married is a different question!

All our friends with DC are married, almost all got married before having them (32, lower? middle class and living in the SE).

Not everyone is a homeowner (yet) but it's a realistic aspiration for all of us.

I do find it quite telling that people keep assuming it's in the woman's interest. Since when did the definition of middle class female become aiming to be the lower, or none earner, and protecting your share of the assets? It may well be a surprise to some but it's perfectly possible to be a middle class female and own shit yourself and earn well.

Also amused by various pps stating their presumptions about unmarried and/or parents that aren't older. It reminds me of all the amusing interactions I had as a young, unmarried mother with the 'desperately trying to prove I'm middle class' type.

@Pippioddstocking I think that says more about that particular school, than it does about the middle class or the independent sector. Dd and I share a surname, dsd and dp share another. It's never been an issue. Nor was it pre dp when I was a single parent. There's also been at least a few dc on large bursaries that I'm aware of that don't live with two married parents, and nobody cares about that either.

I know more unmarried couples, all of which have houses together/and/or children, the age range is 20s/30s all with fair jobs.
My circumstances were 1st child at 21, bought our first house that year as we were in a rented flat (both of us on the mortgage) both work full time, proposed to during the pregnancy, pregnant again at 24, moved to a bigger house and enjoyed family time and working on the house.
Neither of us want a big flash wedding or bothered about 'the day', we don't get on with certain people in the families so would probably cause offence if we didn't invite them. We're not religious. Our parents love their grandchildren to bits and do not care if we were married or not. The intention is there but it's not on the top of our list

Since when did the definition of middle class female become aiming to be the lower, or none earner, and protecting your share of the assets?

It’s the biological and social reality of childbearing and childcare. Yes, there are high-flying women who take five minutes off work to have a baby, organise their lives to the nth degree and remain the higher earner (I have a friend like this, she is married as a matter of fact, but has always been extremely independent) but it’s nearly always the woman who makes career sacrifices. Why shouldn’t a woman benefit from her husband’s career progression/success when hers has slowed because she is the one giving birth to and caring for their children? It would be strange if she didn’t.

Also, marriage is a partnership ‘for richer for poorer’.

I haven't read the whole thread, just skimmed it, because it's long. A few random sentiments in response to what I have read:

'Class'. What is it, exactly? Income? Size/value of property? Car? Particular tastes? Lowbrow -v- middlebrow, an attitude, a mindset? We Brits seem to have a peculiar hang-up about this particular form of social organization that leaves my continental and American friends scratching their heads. Why does this seem to matter so much to us, this 'pride in my roots' idea or 'to be the member of the middle classes, you must have/do X?' To me it smacks of conformism, a thing I've never liked.

I'm liking the old hippy sentiment. I've lived surrounded by a lot of this; something about coded convention has always made me inclined to do the opposite.

Re 'mostly the men' who don't want to marry: I don't know about generalities. But I've never understood the suggestion - not necessarily expressed here but nonetheless widespread - that relationships for women entail 'waiting for a ring'. I didn't. I was busy building my own career. It was my DH who wanted marriage, and because I have no particular views against it and I love him, I agreed. I'm financially self-sufficient, and would have been just as happy unmarried as married.

Eloping/non-conventional weddings are fun.

Marriage as an institution isn't necessarily anti-feminist. A lot of the culture and tradition surrounding it is for sure, but none of that stuff is compulsory.

Women's attitude as to whether other women retain their own identities or discard them for someone else's. Pure personal preference, but it sometimes makes people really mad if you don't do what they think you should do. I retained mine. I use my 'Dr' title - a thing I said I'd never do - because I'm bored rigid with all the cobblers surrounding Miss/Mrs/Ms and have a convenient way of circumventing it. That is the only reason. I've also no objection to Ms (but do draw the line at Mx).

The only thing that makes my hair stand on end about The Great Naming Debate is that repulsive term 'maiden' name. Why on earth is this horrible, archiac, sexist terminology still in existence? Ugh. It really isn't my 'maidenhood', it's my name. And it's certainly not an indicator of my sexual status.

@GrumpyHoonMain thats really interesting. Cos Indian weddings are so expensive, surely its the mc and upper mc who can afford it? and there seems to be no such thing as a small cheap indian wedding, so are the working class bankrupting themselves to pay for the weddings.

@NiteFlights I know that on a societal level it often works out that way. But I don't think that's a result of class. From anecdotal data it does sometimes appear to be tied to the aspiration of becoming middle class, in that a hubby earning enough to support you choosing not to work is up there with with all the other visible shit that so many seem to believe represents social status. But that doesn't mean marriage to remedy that shortfall defines your class.

And let's not forget that if in any other circumstances people weren't contributing economically, the same sector of society would be the first to label them the underclass, scroungers etc. Of course I don't agree with that mentality, but neither do I agree that wearing a ring to do so gives it a mc veneer.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks has said it all.

I have always been the wage earner and decision maker. Hence why my children are 4 years apart, due to childcare costs mostly.

Marriage is not something that I have aspired to. My children do not have their father's surname, it is unnecessary.

I value independent thinking above conformity.

Cohabitation and marriage are both pretty conformist.

@PubsClubsMinistryOfSound in a sense yes. there are other family related decisions that are far less conformist. i..e. choosing to be child free/ stop at one child. I have never heard of people in uk telling couples to marry but I have heard people say that you should have more children. Or less children if you have more than 3.

"Cohabitation and marriage are both pretty conformist."

Yes. The ONS found that when cohabiting before marriage was rare, those who cohabited first were more likely to divorce. Now that cohabiting before marriage is the norm, those who do not do it are more likely to divorce.

I'm working class and couldn't wait to get married so no it's not

I have many friends from all walks of life, both married and not, and thankfully, not one of them is a sanctimonious judgemental bigot.

I’m kind of in the middle of WC and MC although my roots are very much WC.

Anyway my family and friends are a mix between the two and the only couples I know who aren’t married is because one member of the partnership has property that THEY own and the other is essentially from….. well nothing.

Just screams tight fisted to me (they have kids etc
so I assume the property will go to their kids anyway).