Other deaths being recorded as Coronavirus

[Annamaria14]

Hello, my friend is a nurse. She told me that she is questioning the deaths which are being recorded as Coronavirus. She said that she had a patient dying of Cancer, but it was recorded as Coronavirus

I saw another nurse here on mumsnet say the same thing. She said that she had a patient that was dying of cancer, but they recorded it as Coronavirus.

What do you think?

@Lemonblast so do you think that no one on mumsnet knows any nurses, or is married to a Doctor/nurse?

How would that even be possible?

At least six of my friends are nurses. I am not a nurse but I went to a Uni that offered three nursing degree courses, and I still have alot of nursing friends from those days. There are loads of nurses around!

Is your argument, that nobody on here could possibly know a Doctor or nurse?

Lemonblast, what would be the bingo components? From my imperfect recollection of post (and I know some of these will annoy some people)

My husband is a consultant.
My friend is a nurse.
The ward is quiet.
The government are lying to us to see what the public will tolerate.
We're stealing our children's future.
Dying with is different to dying from.
the oldies/disabled would only die anyway so should take one for the team.
All children are devastated and heartbroken at missing out on weeks of GCSE/A-Level/finals exams.
The GPs surgery called me and made me sign a DNR for my parent.

*with not will.

@Annamaria14 You have been asked several times.

WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOUR NURSE FRIENDS REPORTED THIS TO THE RELEVENT AUTHORITIES? or did they all just talk to you and then not actually do anything?

@Zilla1 don't most people have a friend who is a nurse though? It is a profession with huge numbers of people.

Six of my close friends are nurses. I lived with some of them in Uni

NHS staff are always required to "keep scthum". You can't publicly say anything political or that might bring your organisation into disrepute. That's not new or sinister.

I don't like the current government. I think they have a different ideology to me and i think they manipulate facts (though I'm sure all politicians do). I don't believe they are part of a global conspiracy to make up covid 19. Having worked with many, many doctors I can't think of any who would fake a death certificate either. Most of them would go straight to the papers if even asked.

I think the errors in planning for the pandemic are, if not acceptable, understandable. This is the 4th time in 20 years a potential pandemic threatened. The other 3 came to nothing. A lot of very intelligent people got it wrong.

Lemon, I forgot

I'm certain I had COVID in December/January.... I felt really bad.

Annamaria, I think the issue isn't whether many people have friends who are nurses or DHs who are consultants, rather what is then posted reporting what they allegedly say.

When you mentioned quiet wards and I asked 'what about' I wanted to understand your point. To avoid asking again, I'd venture a response that says everything has costs and benefits. Elective procedures and routine outpatients appointments may have been cancelled and lots of outpatient appointments are being done by telephone. For some conditions, this will have a significant negative effect and for some, less so. Even for the significant, it isn't just that the delay has a negative effect, rather it's whether cancelling is better than the alternative of bringing the patient into a hospital with the increased risk of infection for often poorly patients. If they had surgery, it's also whether ITU would be available if things go wrong. In my experience, the posts along the lines of 'My DH is a consultant..' sometimes don't ring true to me when I read what is then written.

Even if someone is in a specialism that is quiet, they are either continuing telephone consultations or being redeployed. I've not met a consultant in any specialism who is genuinely puzzled about the changes or who want to bring poorly patients into hospital and treat/operate though I realise there may be some.

@wanderings what do you think is going on that they are diverting your attention from? Because I have just spent 13 hours looking after critically ill covid patients and I have done that for many weeks now so I would love to know what is going on

Exactly. It gave me a hollow laugh to think Covid could be a Govt cover up for something worse

What a daft conspiracy theory. The government is coming out of this crises quite badly because they didn't establish sufficient testing early on and as a result we have more deaths than we needed to and a more prolonged lockdown than we needed. There is no way they want to inflate the death rate upwards to high light their failings.

StCharlotte,

what would the 'worse' be in a tinfoil hat world?

just to see what people would accept, well the people who don't just believe the mainstream media and government lies but who see through things with the help of Youtube/David Icke/Eamon Holmes/...

to see what people would accept in the context of climate change (it's just natural variations/not man made/whatever Nigel Lawson says...)

to see what people would accept as part of a plan to create a world government/new world order/?

government paedophile ring driving around....

aliens have told them they're arriving on (pick a date)...

what am I missing?

What happened with my F when he died over 20 years ago demonstrates what's happening with COVID-19 deaths in hospital. He'd had Parkinson's Disease for 25 years and also several strokes over the years. He went into hospital with a major stroke but then in hospital he developed septicaemia (now known as sepsis), which resulted in his death. Therefore his cause of death, which was written on his death certificate, was septicaemia and not a stroke or Parkinson's Disease.

Your "nurse friends" have concerns with how things are being reported and they're, what, just letting you know? Why? They have their own processes to follow in regards to raising concerns and I don't think that involves mindless chatter with old friends. I would not consider that reliable information OP. I'm not sure why you've posted.

I’m surprised this is being put forward as conspiracy when it was directly addressed by Chris witty and one of the nightly press conferences.

Yes it is true op. There is an overlap. They call it the difference between dying with Covid v because of it.

So it’s not they are lying about Covid, more it will be on the death certificate as one of the causes if that is what is either suspect or tested positive for. The overlap is people who were terminal and sadly end of life.

As such, there is an overlap of people who have died with it, rather than because of it. The government has publicly stated this at rhe press conference, as have many countries.

They do not know how big that overlap is and will not do the maths until this is over or they have clear air to do so.

The fact that many terminally ill patients, who would have died in the coming months may have died with it, is recorded as a Covid death and captured in the statistics. As been publicly stated and discussed. It’d not a secret or a conspiracy.

Annamaria anybody can be anybody they want on Mumsnet
Still not able to answer the question about what response your ‘friends’ got ?

Zilla can we add ‘Nursed don’t need pizza because at least they’ve got jobs’

And ‘Clapping for carers means you are a government controlled robot whose brain is being fried by 5G’ ?

Completing death certificates is actually quite complex with regards to the sequencing of death and who can complete the certificate - the guidance on who can complete has been relaxed for Covid-19 as the preferred person may not be available/self-isolating etc.

People who complete death certificates are required to do so to the best of their "knowledge and belief" and use clinical judgement if no confirmed diagnosis, eg of Covid-19. If suspected, a box on the death certificate can be ticked to indicate this information may be available post-mortem.

The underlying cause of death, defined by the WHO as “a) the disease or injury which initiated the train of morbid events leading directly to death, or b) the circumstances of the accident or violence which produced the fatal injury".

There is also a part on the death certificate where other diseases, injuries or conditions that contributed to the death, but were not part of the direct sequence of death. These must be known to have or suspected to have contributed to the death - they should not be recorded if they did not. So the "died with not of" scenario should not apply.

So a Covid-19 patient may have the disease or condition which directly led to death as "pnuemonia" or "respiratory arrest" or something, but Covid-19 would be listed on the death certificate as a condition which led to the death. If the patient also had say cancer, it would be listed as something which led to the Covid-19 infection if it was believed this was the case. If the person had cancer and it was not thought to have led to the Covid-19 infection which led to the pneumonia that led to death, it would be listed as contributing to death but not related to the disease or condition causing it.

Add in to the mix that Covid-19 is a notifiable disease therefore must by law be reported to "the government". If a person was hit by a bus and found to have Covid-19, the infection would be reported but it should not appear on the death certificate as leading to or contributing to the sequence of events that led to death. Unless of course it was believed to have contributed e.g. the person was in an acute confusional state owing to infection and wandered into the road.

So to summarise - completing a death certificate is nowhere near as straightfroward as most would think and the process is not infalliable. There will be cases of over reporting and cases of under reporting. Reporting of deaths and reporting of cases of infection just show overall trends. They cannot categorically "prove" that every death has been correctly recorded.

Lemon,

Those make sense.

Nurses legally do not write death certificates. Drs do. Because Drs role is diagnosis including diagnosis of what someone died of.

People usually die of and or with more than one thing. Sometimes young people die of one thing but frail old people die of a number of things altogether.

A death certificate has
1a proximate cause of death eg Covid
1b other contributing cause eg cancer
2 other condition eg dementia

Just because someone had another condition doesn't mean they didn't die of Covid

My mum has terminal cancer but she is stable, active and self caring right now. She is not imminently dying. However if she gets Covid I am sure she will die of it and the cause of her death will be

1a Coronavirus
1b cancer

No-one is lying or covering stuff up it's just that people rarely die of one cause solely.

Genuinely bemused at given how much media attention this has gotten, and how it’s been discussed by so many officials it’s completely and utterly by passed some posters. As said, it was even discussed at one of the nightly press conferences by Chris witty.

There is no lying, cover up, consipiracy or any other such nonsense.

In my mums (theoretical I pray) case I would that say that the cancer did lead to the Coronavirus because she has lung mets that surely would reduce chances of fighting the infection. If someone had stable, localised prostrate cancer it would be listed as 1a Covid 2 prostate cancer as that didn't lead to the Coronavirus infection

I'm always shocked by people's blind faith in a group of individuals whose only goal is power and control.
Also people quick to throw around the words 'conspiracy theorist' when people question anything they've been told.
Still stuck on....60 MILLION PEOPLE....
8 BILLION PEOPLE....
How many have died again?
But nevermind, do as your told like good little girls and boys.

Cupcake, regarding how many have died, in England and Wales, 'all cause' deaths appear higher, even though the lockdown has significantly reduced RTAs, industrial accidents and elective surgery, amongst other likely drivers of reduced deaths. Odd that. I'd have expected if this COVID malarky was just a conspiracy then 'all cause' mortality would reduce given the reduction in RTA, industrial accidents, elective surgery rather than the c8000 additional deaths compared with the five year average....

"The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 10 April 2020 (Week 15) was 18,516; this represents an increase of 2,129 deaths registered compared with the previous week (Week 14), is 7,996 deaths more than the five-year average and is the highest weekly total since Week 1 in 2000."

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending10april2020

or are 'they' inflating these statistics as part of the conspiracy?

Cupcake ‘you’re’ told. Not your

There is also an increase in deaths related to lock down. Which the government has stated they are trying to calculate now. So for example people with significant mental health issues, who commit suicide due to not having full access to their counselling, abused people, alcoholics who aren’t getting the same support, drug addicts, people not getting the hospital treatment they need. Right now there is little clarity in the data, we will need to wait for it.

"I'm always shocked by people's blind faith in a group of individuals whose only goal is power and control."

I absolutely agree.