Other deaths being recorded as Coronavirus

[Annamaria14]

Hello, my friend is a nurse. She told me that she is questioning the deaths which are being recorded as Coronavirus. She said that she had a patient dying of Cancer, but it was recorded as Coronavirus

I saw another nurse here on mumsnet say the same thing. She said that she had a patient that was dying of cancer, but they recorded it as Coronavirus.

What do you think?

Tin foil is that way -->

Why aren't you getting that someone dying of cancer may not have actually died because of the cancer but may have contracted CV19 which hastened the death?

COD will have to be reported as the main causative factor, not the underlying condition.

And that guy works down the chipshop swears he’s Elvis......

When anyone says "friend who is a nurse/doctor/paramedic" it means "bullshit I've read on Facebook"

@okiedokieme - I've heard the same in the uk - everyone who has died at my local hospital was life limited (yes this doesn't mean imminent)

Really every single death was reated to someone who had a life limited condition? Did you review the death certificate of everyone who died, read their notes before they died?

The key is the wording. with rather than from coronavirus. There is a difference.

91% of COVID deaths are in people with underlying conditions. It therefore stands to reason that a number of those would have died anyway, in fact the first deaths were in people who were already in ICU and seriously ill but who then tested positive for COVID

In other instances their underlying conditions will have had an impact on those underlying conditions, e.g. I am in heart failure but am relatively healthy atm (If you can use the words healthy and heart failure in the same sentence). If I catch COVID then it will likely attack my lungs which are already compromised because of my heart. And pressure on my lungs will then likely lead to me going into heart failure and dying. From an instance perspective my death would be because of heart failure. But it will be as a result of COVID.

In truth it’s very difficult to know how many of those deaths were from COVID alone and how many were because of the underlying conditions which made them more susceptible to COVID.

It’s normal for that to happen isn’t it ? You can have say Alzheimer’s for five years but get pneumonia and die from it and that goes on your death cert

NRS numbers are 'where covid is mentioned on the death certificate ' so even it it says cancer and possible covid or covid symptoms it will be counted in the weekly stats.

This is why comparisons between countries are so hard because each record slightly differently.

The only real way to tell will be how much the overall deaths are up year on year. And even that won't really work because eg RTAs will be down.

But if some one is already in the process of dying - they have a terminal disease - why class that death as Coronavirus.

I think that numerous health workers are starting to talk about this.

Every day someone on here posts a thread about Covid deaths being reported as something else. And someone else posts a thread about deaths with other causes being reported as Covid.

Just think about how many people would have to be involved in either conspiracy. Thousands of them. Likely? No.

Because they bloody died of complications arising from coronavirus! I wish we had a head hitting a brick wall emoticon.

It's not a conspiracy theory, there has been discussion about differences in reporting between different countries.
I have heard, for eaxample, that Germany only reports as covid if that was the primary cause of death, which is why their numbers are low.
Whereas Belgium is the other way and recording every person who dies with covid as dying from, and their government is being pressured to change they way they do it.

it is very difficult to accurately attribute what kind of influence covid had on the death of someone with other conditions some may have possibly had years of life left with well managed heart problems other may have been dying anyway for some covid may have been 90% of cause of death others maybe less than 10-20%
some people die with covid, some of covid, some like cancer patients may have lived another 6 weeks or 6 months or years some may only have had days to live anyway,
we will only know afterwards or certainly several months in the future how many deaths were covid from covid-19 as opposed to with covid and as generally no post mortems with covid unless highly unusual we may never know., has covid replaced some or just a few of normal annual seasonal flu/pneumonia deaths?
often patients with several co-morbidities die of flu/ pneumonia in a normal year it just hastens the inevitable, up until March the annual flu deaths were down on the five year average
very very few normally healthy people are dying from covid estimates vary between 1-3% probably at lower end when those you had it but were never tested are taken into account and of course most of the individuals without known underlying conditions are 70+ year olds on no medication
the number of people under 40 who have died is tiny well under 1% and it is about 4% for under 60's both are less if female
some of the young deaths have now being found actually that they did have undiagnosed serious health issues like the 13 year old boy from London that acutally had a heart attack

@iklboo so why are nurses questioning how the deaths are being recorded??!!!

Thank you! @deydododatdodontdeydo

Are people actually this stupid?

Deaths are being under-recorded. Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet and I do believe the tories are making up stories on this site.

The government’s estimates are that half to two-thirds of those dying with coronavirus would have died within a few months, but that coronavirus has brought that forward. This is why it is so bad for care homes, which cater for those with limited life expectancy.

Later in the year, we should see weekly deaths below average - unless the delay in treatments for cancer etc because pushes them up.

@Luckingfovely who are you calling stupid? Yourself? Did you read @deydododatdodontdeydo's post?

There has been discussion on the difference of reporting between countries

Annamaria what response have your ‘nurse friends’ had when they have reported their concerns to the relevant regulatory body?

And you do realise that people can live with a life limiting or terminal diagnosis for years? And that many of the people who have now died would STILL be alive if they hadn’t contacted COVID?

1. generally nurses treating patient don't write or often see death certificates, even if your friend is a nurse who is actively involved in nursing COVID patients.

2. depending on testing and geography, IME not all/many/hardly any deaths in community/in care homes from COVID are included in official statistics and reported as such in England.

3. generally 'my friends is a ...' is not a reliable source of evidence beyond anecdote if provided in good faith.

Normally I'd leave to it but I must admit the numbers of previously healthy HCPs who have died or are ventilated at the moment makes this a little more emotive.

@zilla1 what is your comment on what @deydododatdodontdeydo said

But if some one is already in the process of dying - they have a terminal disease - why class that death as Coronavirus.

You do know that most people with a terminal illness don't actually die of that illness, right? Diseases such as cancer or dementia make you highly susceptible to other illnesses, even a common cold can finish you off. So if you have coronavirus whilst having a terminal or serious health issue, then yes it's likely to be the cause of death, or will kill you sooner than expected even with a limited lifespan.

But if some one is already in the process of dying - they have a terminal disease - why class that death as Coronavirus.

Suppose they died yesterday. Would they have died yesterday if they didn't have Coronovirus? If no, then Coronavirus is the main cause of death.

(From what I've read recently, it's not as simple as saying somebody died of X. There will be several things mentioned that describe the pathway to death.)

I've also read that the World Health Organisation sets standards for how deaths are to be recorded, and has rules that govern what gets recorded as the main contributing factor. So our own government wouldn't even be the ones determining how deaths get recorded, assuming they are signed up to apply WHO guidelines.

What I find so hard to believe is that many oeople on here believe that the government would never lie to us about anything, that the government would never be corrupt about anything.

When loads of government have lied and been corrupt to us before!

I agree with the USA protesters.

Why does everyone in the UK follow the UK government like sheep.

For those who are interested, all cause deaths appear higher, even though the lockdown has significantly reduced RTAs, industrial accidents and elective surgery, amongst other likely drivers of reduced deaths. Odd that. I'd have expected if this COVID malarky was just annotated to deaths that would have happened to the terminally ill then all cause mortality would reduce given the reduction in RTA, industrial accidents, elective surgery ....

"The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 10 April 2020 (Week 15) was 18,516; this represents an increase of 2,129 deaths registered compared with the previous week (Week 14), is 7,996 deaths more than the five-year average and is the highest weekly total since Week 1 in 2000."

for those who would like to view the source then look for things they can quote to support what they already believe ...
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending10april2020