Other deaths being recorded as Coronavirus

[Annamaria14]

Hello, my friend is a nurse. She told me that she is questioning the deaths which are being recorded as Coronavirus. She said that she had a patient dying of Cancer, but it was recorded as Coronavirus

I saw another nurse here on mumsnet say the same thing. She said that she had a patient that was dying of cancer, but they recorded it as Coronavirus.

What do you think?

The government do not sign death certificates

What I find so hard to believe is that many oeople on here believe that the government would never lie to us about anything, that the government would never be corrupt about anything.

I've just lived this this government and the PM push through Brexit on mostly lies and propaganda. Their ability to be truthful has nothing to do with medical information and if qualified medical professionals deem a death to be due to Covid-19 or not.

I agree with the USA protesters.

Then you really cannot be debated seriously with.

And this with some delays in registering deaths/tracking down bodies during the COVID crisis compared with 2001 and previous peaks, though this will even out over time.

I agree with the USA protesters.

Dear Christ.

My comment about international comparisons is that different countries report differently. I've not looked at the evidence but I've seen reported that Germany reports or previously reported deaths based on presenting condition so if someone had a RTA, recovered and was about to be discharged then caught COVID and died then they wouldn't be included in COVID deaths so deaths in Germany from COVID would appear relatively lower than England. France reports deaths in the community and acute whereas UK daily briefing numbers only include acute so France would appear relatively worse than the UK. In England, ONS figures catch where the death certificate mentions COVID but as IME most death certificates relating to the community don't mention COVID when it is likely (even though the Dr could) as testing outside acute is charitably patchy then I expect deaths in the community are being under-reported.

Yes gods!!

They really do walk amongst us.

But if some one is already in the process of dying - they have a terminal disease - why class that death as Coronavirus.

Would you say the same if they got hit by a bus?

What about the man from my town who was terminally ill that was stabbed to death? Does that not count since he was dying either or is it only Coronavirus that doesn't count as a cause of death even when it kills you?

I’ll try asking you one more time OP.
What response have your ‘nurse friends’ had so far when reporting their concerns?

What we have to mindful of is that deaths are being recorded as "with Corona virus" not "of Corona virus".

Not on the death certificates I've seen.

There have been a couple of simple "Covid 19" as the only cause and others showing it as the primary cause with underlying conditions as secondary causes.

A death certificate is a legal document with my signature and details on it as a doctor - my qualifications and GMC number are there. It is taken extremely seriously, we discuss the causes of death with the consultant in charge of the patient’s care and now with dedicated senior medics who review deaths in hospital. Every time I have filled in one I have remembered the family who come to collect it, that what we write is so vitally important to them and to the memory of their loved ones.

So your “nurse friend” is wrong. We are not lying and it is really quite insulting of you to say that

If anything the government appear to have been playing down the death toll by only focusing on hospital deaths, possibly to cover up the scandal of what's happening in residential homes.

@Annamaria14. No matter how often you name change to say the same thing it doesn't make it true. Or even sane.

Your tin foil conspiracy theories are batshit

Not many of us think the Govt is fantastic & never lies, but what you keep suggesting is just utterly ridiculous. Why not go and join a conspiracy website instead - there are plenty of them.

Oh and for those who are interested there is a specific order for how we write a cause of death.

Part 1 describes the direct cause of death with 1a being the immediate cause, and 1b and 1c describing the sequence of events that lead to 1a. The conditions mentioned in sections 1b and 1c should have directly caused all of the conditions listed in 1a.

Section 2 of the 'cause of death' section is for any other conditions contributing to the death, but not related to the disease that actually caused death.

Although it's a long time ago now, I had a job where I saw a lot of death certificates. In the winter many had bronchopneumonia listed as one of the causes along with other causes such as cancer. The same will be true with covid-19.
True statistical comparison with previous years, and more importantly ,with other countries will take a long time to be published. Good statistics always set out the parameters, including methodology, to ensure you are comparing apples to apples and not apples to pears.

I just don't understand why people trust this government so much, who are human beings, like you and I , they are not Gods.

Do you really think that a Government couldn't ever lie to us?

Can you say this ten times louder, please? It dismays me, the mass faith in Saint Boris and his cronies. I haven't trusted any government since the day that master of spin Tony Bliar was elected (I was 17 at the time), who ripped off his mask on day one, and the 23 years since have not changed my view. I'm sure the spin doctors are very hard at work right now, diverting our attention from things that are really going on.

I've wondered about this from the beginning.

When my Dad died from an industrial cancer he had to have a PM to prove that it was the cancer that had killed him (he had already instigated a compensation claim) rather than an underlying issue which would have made it possible for the bastards to avoid paying out my DM.

Is it the case that everyone who is currently dying and then tested for covid just automatically put down to that?

Sorry for being thick.

@wanderings what do you think is going on that they are diverting your attention from? Because I have just spent 13 hours looking after critically ill covid patients and I have done that for many weeks now so I would love to know what is going on

You see, the insistence that those of us who read the ONS data, understand the reporting strands, the time lag in data and eventual analysis don't tend to mention ANY politician at all.

When we post about factual inaccuracies or misunderstandings it's not supporting Johnson or any other individual. We post about facts, opinions and perspectives based on those facts.

Ignore that if you like, but try to understand that disagreeing with you doesn't necessarily make anyone a Tory voter or Boris best mate. We just like facts, stats, numbers etc when they come from long standing apolitical sources.

Do governments lie? yes in a spectrum from spin to blatant but that doesn't mean the government is exaggerating COVID to trial locking the UK down to see how far they could get people to agree.

so, are 'they' exaggerating COVID in a conspiracy to lock down England and Wales. Well, the economic costs are significant (but for the 'we're stealing our children's future's' brigade, these costs might be less than those of not locking down). Would a government incur these costs voluntarily? Probably not. Most other countries of a range of political persuasions are taking stronger/similar/significant measures. Odd that. Would it have to be a 'New World Order' pan-global conspiracy ....

If anything, as PPs have said, COVID deaths are probably being under-reported IME.

Is there spin and deception about COVID, IME yes but not how to exaggerate COVID, rather the stink of spin concerns PPE and testing, inadequacies for months and losing the advantage of several months' notice from when this started in China. If the UK had established effective testing then contact tracing might have avoided a lockdown. If the UK had stockpiled, sourced and provided effective PPE then many HCPs' families might not be mourning now.

Also, what about all of the other treatments and appointments in hopsitals being cancelled.

This was posted by a woman on another thread on here:

Dh (hospital consultant) is saying the same about where he works - it’s driving him mad! Empty wards, lots of staff, and so many important procedures /operations / treatments cancelled. God knows how they are ever going to catch up!

Annamaria, what about the cancelled treatments?

@countmebackfromten There's another thread about some hospital wards being empty, and nurses being given orders to keep schtum. I don't know if that's true, but if it is, then I mean that kind of thing. Humphrey Appleby would be proud of the secrecy.

Maybe there are also lots of side effects of the lockdown going on too, such as suicides, but the powers that be don't want us to think about that. What I am saying is that it's very easy for the government to tell us what they want us to believe, rather than what is true. It's very easy to manipulate figures, change a word here and there, miss out a zero here and there.

Are people actually this stupid?

Are people so stupid as to not believe that there are differences in the way different countries report things?
If we are under reporting, then other countries are under reporting, some more so than us, some less.
For the record, I don't support the US protestors, or believe COVID-19 is a myth, or is being exaggerated, or any other things that other people might believe.

Oh no not the ‘my husband is a consultant’ line.

We’ll soon have a full house of covid bollocks bingo

Would you give any consideration the thought that some hospital wards/depts are quiet so that we try and minimise the spread of a life threatening virus ? Because yunno people in hospitals tend to be ill and vulnerable with underlying health issues. So if we can keep them at home during the peak of this virus we have a better chance of not killing them?

Some people will cancer can die of a secondary infection. CLL is one such cancer. Most people don't die of CLL they die of pneumonia or some other infection. So their death certificate would say that. Same with Covid19.