To think Higher Education must move courses online that could be done as distance learning?

[PersonaNonGarter]

The world is changing and the old style teaching requiring everyone to be in a lecture theatre or tutorial is over.

Social Distancing, Impact on the Planet, Widening Education - whichever way you look at it Universities should not be expecting their students to commute in.

So why aren’t they doing this? And why are people just accepting it?

Another important point with regard choice is that lots of people choose face to face because courses which are purely delivered online are often viewed as being as less rigourous. This is particularly true of international students.
I don't necessarily agree with this but it's an important factor when designing courses.

Another important point with regard choice is that lots of people choose face to face because courses which are purely delivered online are often viewed as being as less rigourous

This is particularly true of international students

International students have to study face to face - physical attendance is a condition of the tier 4 visa.

I suspect the issue is more around the perception of the individual university though rather than the delivery - a distance degree from say Oxford or UCL wouldn't be viewed as less rigorous than its face to face counterpart.

Obviously I know about the visa conditions and you're probably right about university reputation however, there are some countries that do not value courses that have 'online' or 'distance learning' in their title and it really wouldn't matter who offered that course.
I teach a very niche subject and we're centre of excellence recognised internationally. Whenever we've suggested running the course online to our international students they have been emphatic in their requests for us to continue with face to face teaching. The main reason is that an online course is not respected in their country.

how to teach critical thinking skills online
Online seminars, but not thousands of students at a time. Between 10 and 20 usually. It functions like face to face (but slower and usually in less depth and the odd technical problem but that's improving with new software). I have done this sort of thing for 3 universities recently.

Yes Sue. One of the universities I work for sends lecturers over there when we could function solely online, for that reason.

Before the pandemic, we were constantly told that it was the university’s responsibility to a) support/solve students’ mental health and b) ensure their employability. Both of those are much much harder to do as distance learning. The “extras” from being physically there isn’t just clubs and gyms.

People have no idea the technical expertise needed to put things online securely. The Open University has been doing distance learning for years.

I've not RTFT, so maybe this has been touched on. The 'two cultures' phenomenon is bad enough already, but at least at good universities there is mixing of people from different disciplines. Not everything of value learned is the content of ones own course.

FaFoutis see already I would consider 20 students in a face to face seminar to be problematic. My discipline ideally needs tutorials with 2 students to a tutor and this is how it was taught when I was an undergrad. Financial pressures have moved us to seminars but 12 students per group is already too many. 20 is ridiculous, it’s just a group discussion rather than a rigorous exploration of arguments. Face to face seminars also do away with all the advantages of online learning, e.g. that it can be accessed at any time by the student, while introducing problems with simultaneous access to the class at right time.

The seminars are just a part of it, I record lectures for anytime viewing, host forums for asynchronous discussion and set up access to online research materials.
I deal with 20 (it's rarely that many really) by putting them in small online rooms of maybe 3 students, they discuss whatever I have set and I go into each room and discuss with each small group. This takes ages though, 2 hour sessions often. All this is the result of many years practice, changes of software & tweaking of methods. It's still not as good as I'd like it to be.

See I have found that asynchronous discussion is a nightmare, the students go off topic, they don’t understand the arguments, they get lost, etc. Small groups can work if they have very specific , small tasks and I can check on them often but it is difficult when you have many groups to hear back from (equally difficult face to face though). Personally I have never given a lecture where I haven’t interacted with the audience and I really miss that. I’ve tried to record some lectures for fun during the lockdown and it’s not quite the same.

And the OP is assuming that the internet signal is excellent, uninterrupted and with high speeds everywhere

That's it Boo for online teaching to work everything you do has to be specific, small and simplified.
I miss seeing faces when I'm recording a lecture, I can't tell if they are following or not and nobody laughs at my 'jokes'. It's unsatisfying for me.

And the OP is assuming the internet signal is excellent

One of the drawbacks I have mentioned in earlier posts is disparity in student access to tech which is a prima facie issue. However, this is not unique to online learning - well off students have access to more resources whatever the style of teaching - but much easier to address when the course is cheaper to run.

Thanks for all the replies. I am struck that there seems to be no interest/responsibility from posters in making their courses cheaper and more widely accessible. Why should students have to move town/country/continent to have access to the best learning for their discipline?

As for ‘our country doesn’t value online learning’ - that is a chicken/egg issue. As good courses move online, this will change (note to unis trying to attract international students don’t put ‘(Distance Learning)’ in the title). There is no suggestion that online courses be less academically rigorous or any reason why they should assess submitted work below their current expectation.

No. My daughter doesn't want to distance learn her degree in biomedical sciences. She does several hours of labs a week.

She is an only child who doesn't have many local friends, but has made lots of friends at university. If she stayed at home for the next 2 years without mixing with her fellow students she would feel lonely and isolated. Her motivation is already suffering, and would suffer even more, and her mental health would nosedive.

I hate to say this because I know this might cause offence, but are you on the autism spectrum or an introvert who hates mixing with people?

I am struck that there seems to be no interest/responsibility from posters in making their courses cheaper and more widely accessible.

Accessibility is an issue with online provision. Even the OU haven't cracked making all their activity types accessible to all students.

Also, cost. Do you assume it is the lecturers who are to put their material into online format, maintain it and teach it without any external support? How will they maintain IT and security? Had you considered that rights for materials are different depending on the medium and the audience? Had you considered the performing rights issues related to lectures being potentially recorded and distributed? In terms of being online having cost savings, are you assuming all staff will work from home and not require any campus space? How do you propose handling issues around parity - ensuring all students have fair access to all materials - how do you keep a record of which materials were online and available to which students at which time so you can investigate complaints?

Just because many online tools are readily available, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are suitable for online learning at scale without considerable effort being put in to the learning design of each course as well as creating and maintaining the infrastructure required.

Online provision needs to be as carefully thought out and as rigorous in terms of standards as face to face provision, or students will receive a lower quality product.

There is no suggestion that online courses be less academically rigorous

Note for your future studies: assertion is not fact.

Why should students have to move town/country/continent to have access to the best learning for their discipline?

But this is not JUST about the access to the best. It's also the whole experience of actually being in a different country. Employers do look at that too. It teaches you skills you cannot replicate. It teaches you about different cultures and how to live with them. By making it only online and accessible from their home you would take away THE experience of a lifetime which will shape them as a person. Do you think that people pay the overseas fees just because of the name of unies? No. It's also the life-changing experience. You will never get that online.

Further to the moan. There are people who genuinely need the face to face because of SEN. Without the ability to stay after class, have group studies in a library , support from the uni etc, many would not achieve grades they do. This level od support can't be done online.

And again. Cost of running online AND physical would be too high to make it worth it.

I hate to say this because I know this might cause offence, but are you on the autism spectrum or an introvert who hates mixing with people?

LOL. No.

You’ll see from my earlier responses that I see the value in being able to access campus life - but that is in addition to the course content and they are not dependent on each other. A student can learn about the American Civil War without going to a university society, using the medical facilities, accessing the accommodation services and so on.

On infrastructure - this is an issue that all businesses have to face and overcome. Experience suggests that it will lead to cost savings and improved productivity but examples of organisations who don’t experience those increases would be interesting.

A pp suggested that I had a very transactional view of HE, which I reflected on and think is true. This reflects the very real £9k+ transaction of annual fees. Unsurprisingly, students want contact time at these prices and ‘here are some resources’ is insufficient. That is not proof that online courses are less popular - only proof that students want valuable contact time that reflects their investment in the course.

I never suggested that online courses are less rigourous but they are viewed as such by some groups. We have offered online versions of our courses to students from China, Vietnam and India - the responses were the same. Their country wouldn't recognise the qualifications if it was studied exclusively online.

As a course leader I have worked hard to make my course accessible ( the cost effectiveness is out of my hands to some extent). We are subjected to rigourous course evaluation annually and changes are made if needed. I've changed modules and timetables to make the course as accessible as possible. The one thing that is made clear though is that there isn't an appetite to change delivery to online. I'm not going to do it for the sake of it.

I run a blended learning version of my course. The students in this version are forced to do it this way by their employers. It doesn't as well work and all the students tell me they wish they could do it the traditional way.
This course is harder to run and manage and takes up more of my time.

A pp suggested that I had a very transactional view of HE, which I reflected on and think is true. This reflects the very real £9k+ transaction of annual fees. Unsurprisingly, students want contact time at these prices and ‘here are some resources’ is insufficient. That is not proof that online courses are less popular - only proof that students want valuable contact time that reflects their investment in the course.

But market research and insight shows they're less popular. I don't know how many different ways to explain that to you 🤷

Another point to consider. Universities are huge employers and contribute massively to the local economy. A move to more online learning would have a detrimental impact on some areas.

but that is in addition to the course content and they are not dependent on each other. A student can learn about the American Civil War without going to a university society

You don't really seem to understand some of the fundamentals of a university education - in most if not all disciplines.

Knowledge is not generated simply as "content" - it is created and learned in dialogues and collaboration. These are most efficiently achieved in face-to-face teaching & learning. I've been doing endless seminars & tutorials online over the lockdown, and frankly, these are in no way equivalent to the physical experience - nowhere near.

Research and teaching are not a transactional process - and they never have been, and they never should be.

Gaining a degree via online learning, then getting a job which involves working from home sounds like a very sterile and joyless existence

Most people, apart from the extremely introverted want and need social interaction, for leisure as well as learning/work.

Your inability to understand the meaning of critical thinking is disturbing OP.

You’ll see from my earlier responses that I see the value in being able to access campus life - but that is in addition to the course content and they are not dependent on each other. A student can learn about the American Civil War without going to a university society, using the medical facilities, accessing the accommodation services and so on.

Yes they are. I could not cope with my course without the other opportunities at uni, or without the support network of friends who are physically in the same place. I regularly have to stay up until 2am to finish the weekly essay (and yes I know that's not right but time management is not my forte) and having supportive friends either doing the same thing with me or just checking in on me irl the next day makes it doable. If I was doing that at home by myself for the whole degree I would not cope.