To think Higher Education must move courses online that could be done as distance learning?

[PersonaNonGarter]

The world is changing and the old style teaching requiring everyone to be in a lecture theatre or tutorial is over.

Social Distancing, Impact on the Planet, Widening Education - whichever way you look at it Universities should not be expecting their students to commute in.

So why aren’t they doing this? And why are people just accepting it?

You sound really out of touch OP.

Correlation isn't causation, though.

There is bucketloads of evidence to support the notion that attendance benefits grades and retention. Bucketloads.

I do think that the HE sector is going to have a very hard time adjusting to the new world. The stream of high paying foreign students is drying up and the level of resistance to going online on this thread does not bode well for universities looking to diversify income streams.

You're kidding right? In less than a week my medium-sized institution put all term 3 teaching on line. It got exams online, resources on line, rolled out software and training to every student and staff member who wanted it, changed assessment methodologies to reflect the change to online, changed regulations and grade calculations for no detriment policy,etc etc etc. No one has resisted at all - we have absolutely run with this and done a fucking good job in the circumstances (thank you IT dept - you have worked a miracle).

Universities are aware of the need to diversify income streams - but replacing face to face with online will kill demand, not create more. Plus the cost of doing it properly is huge. Supplement with online, yes - pretty much everyone records and uploads lectures. But replace - absolutely categorically not. Not if we want to survive.

nopenothappening

Correct. I stated it as an interesting and relevant observation, not a proof of anything.

Absolutely what titchy said...100%

I really enjoy going to physical lectures and tutorials. I feel disconnected when it’s not like that.

Do you honestly think that distance learning from a desk in a student’s bedroom will prepare them for the world of work?

Obviously, I have no idea on the student/bedroom/work. It may or it may not.

But this does show up exactly what I am talking about: you have assumed that the course is ‘preparing them for the world of work’, when actually most people really are looking to gain the knowledge of the module or whatever.

I am not dismissing the pastoral stuff. Only suggesting that - where physically practical - universities will need to find a way of delivering the course content without people being there in person.

Surely this is not that shocking. How else do posters believe HE will keep going when people are not moving around to study?

I stopped doing OU courses when they moved entirely online. Watching a video of a scientific experiment isn't the same as learning to use the equipment and perform the experiment yourself and looking at pictures of rocks and a little tray of samples isn't the same as seeing and touching the rocks in situ, for example.

Actual, human contact is vital for many to be able to learn - and university isn't just about sitting in your childhood bedroom on a computer, it's about living independently, making friends, making mistakes, and finding out there's more out there than just your home town.

So whilst there is a place for solitary learning the OU, I think it is unreasonable to demand that everything is done online.

Only suggesting that - where physically practical - universities will need to find a way of delivering the course content without people being there in person.

They will while we have no vaccine for coronavirus. But do you honestly think that once it is under control that most students will want to gain a degree by distance learning? I don't.

you have assumed that the course is ‘preparing them for the world of work’

As DD is dong a medical related degree, yes I am. She doesn't have the luxury of doing a degree just because. She has chosen the field she wants to study because that is the area she wants to work in.

I still think you are massively underestimating the value of face to face learning to the students, and to the tutors/lecturers.

But this does show up exactly what I am talking about: you have assumed that the course is ‘preparing them for the world of work’, when actually most people really are looking to gain the knowledge of the module or whatever.

The idea of learning for learning's sake has, sadly, gone, and you are making assumptions about what "most" people are looking for. The vast majority of students (and their parents) see employability as one of the most important (if not, the most important) aspects of their course. Employment outcomes are one of the key metrics used in the TEF and the government is making noises about ranking courses solely on this basis.

Watching a video of a scientific experiment isn't the same as learning to use the equipment and perform the experiment yourself

That is exactly what DD is struggling with right now @MitziK. She is currently being given estimated data from fake lab experiments and has to write up a lab report from a set of figures. It just doesn't work well at all.

I did my whole masters online and got a distinction. I chose Swansea uni as it had the best reputation. I worked full time and studied. Online gave me flexibility to do it in my own time. However I was in my late 30s a nd had drive to do it.

My undergrad straight from school was healthcare based so couldn’t of done if online. To get honest I don’t think I would have passed if I didn’t need to go to lectures.

Online is hard as you need discipline. But suppose students are used to accessing online material.

You sound really out of touch OP.

Nope - I am university target audience 2020. I am ready and willing to go, armed with motivation, grades, wallet and willingness to learn. Absolutely student-in-waiting bang up to date. I don’t claim all students are exactly like me but plenty will be similar and universities want our cash.

My experience of teaching is fairly recent too. But I am interested in whatever more-recent thinking says less information to be made available online = a good thing.

I'd also like to think that students benefit from engaging face to face with the experts in their field - being in a room with them, getting to know them etc etc

Watching a video of a scientific experiment isn't the same as learning to use the equipment and perform the experiment yourself

And it's even less like doing mini research projects, which afaik is a key component of all science and engineering degrees.

But this does show up exactly what I am talking about: you have assumed that the course is ‘preparing them for the world of work’, when actually most people really are looking to gain the knowledge of the module or whatever.

And you say you aren’t out of touch? For the vast majority of students at university employability is a key priority if not THE priority. This is why is is one of the main strategic objectives for universities. Unfortunately there isn’t much learning for learnings sake going on anymore.

You are assuming universities haven’t considered everything you’ve mentioned...of course we have. What do you think market research and market insight teams do? When I took over the running of my course I was given carte blanche to do what ever I needed to make the course successful. I worked with our market insight team to investigate whether a distance learning option would work. The answer was no....potential students didn’t want it and current/past students were clear that it wouldn’t work. This gets revisited regularly and the answer is still no.

My university, like others, has responded fantastically to moving everything online and our students have been very complimentary about everything however, one of the resasons its working so well is because we already know our students and have built up a rapport with them. I know which of my students need additional support and which ones need me to check in on them more often. You just don’t build those relationships online ......I also run a blended learning course so I know there is room for some online delivery but my experience ( and this is echoed across the sector) is that the students aren’t as motivated, they don’t perform as well, and they’re generally harder
work in terms of delivery. And before you jump on the fact we’re all apparently work shy dinosaurs, it’s not a case of not doing something because it’s hard work but a case of weighing up whether the hard work is worth the results. In some cases it is, and that’s why we do it but for many, many courses it just wouldn’t work.

You seem to have appointed yourself an expert on the sector because you are wanting to study this year and have worked at a university but I’m afraid your view isn’t what the market research shows us.

Excuse the typos.....

For the vast majority of students at university employability is a key priority if not THE priority.

Yes, the course CONTENT. That is exactly what I am saying - provide the information online. Once the qualification is achieved an employer can understand that X information has been studied/learned. As a paying student, this is what we want.

What you have the. confused is the pastoral social aspect of ‘preparing for the world of work’ and the actual subject being taught. That’s an ‘employability’ that you assume you are providing but actually not required for the subject information to be imparted.

How can they justify £9000 for a few online lectures. Many courses need library access, practical work, discussions and seminars.
I have recently done online ou courses and although great for what they are I didn't find them any where near as useful as being there in person.
With talk of some sort of lockdown extending long term I would suggest to my DC to defer for a year until everything was settled

So why am I being asked to demonstrate that all of my modules help students develop Employability skills not just Employability knowledge?This is fairly common across the sector.Employability should be embedded in the curriculum.

Plus careers and Employability support works best with face to face contact and teaching. Some aspects can be delivered online but not all. This a valuable service and moving all of this online would be hugely detrimental to students. And if you think employers are going to just go off our module specs you’re very much mistaken. Face to face work with employers is also an inpoertant aspect of university life.

You also seem to think HE teaching is just providing information. Therefore we can just stick this online - it’s really so much more than that. Which you should know if you’ve taught at HE level.......
You say it’s what students want but that’s not true. It might be what you want but you are not representative of all students.

The budget for running physical AND online course at the same time would be way too big.
My course could be done online. I assume because it is done online somewhere. However, the actual contact, the seminars, the ability to ask, discuss and explain right there and then is invaluable.

Our university, the lecturers themselves I guess, did not manage the move online well. We have same things on our vle, just with added notes... Emails take for ever to be answered... Horrible experience. I am very envious of the majority who got zoom sessions etc.

And yes. There is correlation between attendance and grades. I laughed at it too. Now I am textbook example🙄

But university education isn't just about acquiring information. My career may or may not be directly related to my undergraduate degree, but I am fairly certain that an employer would not be remotely interested in my ability or otherwise to parrot the time line of the Spanish Golden Age as it was provided to me in an online format. They may however be interested in my ability to question ideas, think for myself, debate politely and intelligently, and work to tight deadlines, all of which are skills learnt best (imo) through face to face teaching

Exactly bakedpotato
History is one of the most sought after subjects by graduate employers. They don’t care what modules you did but they really care about the skills you’ve developed along the way.

Why do you think the universities with high contact time are the most sought after? Even though most learning is done in front of an open book or screen it is that personal stimulus in the classroom or lecture hall that is the trigger and then the catalyst.

Once the qualification is achieved an employer can understand that X information has been studied/learned. As a paying student, this is what we want.

What you have the. confused is the pastoral social aspect of ‘preparing for the world of work’ and the actual subject being taught. That’s an ‘employability’ that you assume you are providing but actually not required for the subject information to be imparted.

You've just confirmed that you have no idea what you're talking about. "Employability" does not equal "information learned".