To think Higher Education must move courses online that could be done as distance learning?

[PersonaNonGarter]

The world is changing and the old style teaching requiring everyone to be in a lecture theatre or tutorial is over.

Social Distancing, Impact on the Planet, Widening Education - whichever way you look at it Universities should not be expecting their students to commute in.

So why aren’t they doing this? And why are people just accepting it?

Nobody is blurring anything. They are rightly pointing out that university is more than studying modules.

You clearly have a very transactional view of education where someone pays fees, reads some stuff online, submits assignments and gets a piece of paper.

Not everyone shares this view.

@Pollaidh

You underestimate just how valuable those 3 or however many contact hours a week are in subjects like English other arts/essay based disciplines. Because there is little contact time students are really motivated to attend it and actively participate, have discussions and ask questions. These contact hours spark and interest and motivate students to then go on to do the extra reading required in their own time, because they have been fascinated and interested by what has gone on in classes.

Taking away this contact time would be absolutely detrimental to the majority of students who choose traditional university (not OU), particularly undergrads. It can be hard enough to self motivate in subjects with little contact time without taking away the discussion and collaboration with others which is the aspect of the degree that most arts students enjoy.

For example one of my housemates at university studied history, she hated the aspect of trawling through article after article reading waffle to find one relevant point but she did it because she loved the discussion and argument element of the course and the reading facilitated it. If you took away the face to face you would find a lot of people simply opting out of studying these subjects because all the most interesting parts would disappear.

I have said that courses that can be online should be.

You've not said why though - what is the benefit by having students in a campus situation then going back to their rooms to watch a lecture on tv.

You've not addressed the choice aspect either - do you really mean to say that you think it's ideal if someone who wants to study History HAS to study online even if they'd far prefer face to face?

Not understanding these points either:
It not a reason to justify:
1) keeping quality teaching from people who are appropriate, and would benefit and pay for the course

What does this mean? What people are appropriate?

2) the disservice to the discipline not to reach as widely as possible
There's plenty of online resources in tons of subjects for non-students to access

3) social distancing and environmental concerns

Social distancing is not something to be aimed for What environmental concerns?

OP I really don't agree with your view of HE.
While a purely online delivery method would work for a small group of students it would be catastrophic for others...... specifically WP students, those with specific well-being or mental health issues and those that develop and thrive while taking part in the university experience as a whole.
I can think of dozens of students who developed hugely due to the extra curricular elements of university as well as the academic side. The opportunity to be a course rep, get involved in the SU, be a student ambassador.....to name a few. You wouldn't get that from distance learning.

You clearly have a very transactional view of education where someone pays fees, reads some stuff online, submits assignments and gets a piece of paper.

[I think you may have missed off ‘learns stuff and does the work’ from this analysis]

Having been to and taught at University I do know about university life - and that can be great, positive and life enhancing but it isn’t essential.

The logical fallacy of much of the posting on here is that the education/the modules/course content require campus life. They absolutely do not and there is little reason to withhold distance learning courses on this basis.

They absolutely do not and there is little reason to withhold distance learning courses on this basis.

Who's withholding distance learning? For umpteenth bloody time if someone wants to study online there's the OU.

WHAT IF THEY DONT? WHY DO YOU WANT TO TAKE THEIR CHOICE AWAY?

@PersonaNonGarter there is no social/pastoral requirement for courses at the OU, this is the entire point of it. However tens of thousands of students do want these things and that's why the choose traditional face to face universities.

1. no one is keeping quality teaching from people wanting to take the courses. No university insists you partake in it's social elements, people just choose to do so. Furthermore almost all resources are online now and there are plenty of students who do choose to use these and not attend some lectures and only travel to campus for exams. But the point is it is there for all those who want it and this absolutely should not be taken away.

2. there are very few disciplines the OU does not cover (and these tend to be the ones that require face to face contact). The discipline can reach as far as it can through this already, it is not being 'disserviced'

3. social distancing is a short term issue for the duration of this virus, yes it may last up to 18 months but in terms of how long some of these institutions have been operating this is just a drop in the ocean and should not be an issue requiring long term change. I don't know exactly what you mean by 'environmental issues' perhaps commuting? If this is the case the majority of undergrad students move to their university town and walk or use public transport to attend lectures. Furthermore the presence of students in these towns brings thousand of pounds to the local economies, creates jobs for locals and in many cases even rejuvenated to local areas.

Do you mean courses that can be online should be as well as F2F learning? If that's the case they already are, all lectures are recorded and put online as well as plenty of resources. However if you mean that they should be put online in place of F2F learning I strongly disagree and have stated some of the reasons in my previous post.

If you hear that people WFH as well as students studying from home are struggling, lonely and demotivated why on earth would you want to continue this? It would just make more people miserable.

Again, just to be clear to the last posters - I haven’t said we must cancel student life. But that courses that can be delivered online should be available online.

By appropriate, I mean meets entry criteria.

There's plenty of online resources in tons of subjects for non-students to access
This is meaningless and if your department has pride or specialism, then this surely holds no weight.

If a student wants to study eg particular anthropology of a certain period why should they not be able to access that course without having to move across the country/globe to study with the most relevant people?

I’m a lecturer at a university that’s moved everything online.

Does your university have no labs? No other practical courses such as drama?

In normal times, DDs lectures were all recorded and available online anyway but apparently the lecture theatres were still full. (It was useful during the strikes for those who didn't want to encounter a picket line). I suppose supervisions might be done using online methods, but they're very limited in what they can do for their third year lab projects next term. Other subjects it will be impossible - I'm a chemist, we used to have labs for the whole of every afternoon except Wednesdays.

But that courses that can be delivered online should be available online.

Why????? When students want face to face, why are you proposing removing that choice??????

but it isn’t essential
To you.

This is evidently one of those threads where a poster makes sweeping statements about a sector and isn't interested in discussion as they just want to argue they're right.

For someone who has worked at a university, you don’t seem to have any idea of the challenges faced by academic staff nowadays. Most of us work at least double the hours we are paid for and are genuinely trying to provide a quality teaching environment and programme for our students. The current crisis has further increased both workload and the pastoral needs of our students. Moving to a more online approach on a long term basis would require time and resources that we simply don’t have. As you no longer work in a university and you’re not studying at one, perhaps you could go and pick on people in your own sector instead and leave us alone?

If a student wants to study eg particular anthropology of a certain period why should they not be able to access that course without having to move across the country/globe to study with the most relevant people?

They can if they want - it's called the open university and is the country's largest, by far, university.

If a student wants to study a particular anthropology and wants to have a seminar discussion face to face with the most relevant people WHY SHOULDNT THEY?

I am not sure why everyone is insisting on OU.

That’s just one resource and I am a bit that posters are so dismissive of online learners that this is all you wish to offer them.

My most recent department (as many of yours) has absolute experts in very niche, niche fields who designed their courses with those interests in mind. Why insist that these courses be shut to online learners when they might be delivered pretty easily?

• There's plenty of online resources in tons of subjects for non-students to access This is meaningless and if your department has pride or specialism, then this surely holds no weight*

And yet MOOCS, journals all online and I can assure you no department I am aware of are feeling the shame you think they should be feeling...

Why insist that these courses be shut to online learners when they might be delivered pretty easily?

Well you need to persuade your colleagues to do some moocs then, not take away the choice (again you've ignored that one...) from everyone else.

Don't you think there is value to the university experience other than just the subject matter? There are options to do this. When I went to uni (sadly did not finish) I hugely valued the face to face parts of the experience, mainly the discussions I had with other students, but also meeting people and the lecturers themselves, for many young people it's their first experience of living away from home as well, that's a nice kind of halfway house from parental supervision to no supervision at all.

What I did find incredibly helpful when I was at uni as a part time student, lone parent who didn't live on campus, was that all essential readings were made available electronically.

Out of curiosity OP.....have you ever designed and delivered online HE level courses/modules?

perhaps you could go and pick on people in your own sector instead and leave us alone?

Genuinely sorry and surprised that you feel picked on. Totally not my intention and I am properly surprised how hard some posters have taken this suggestion.

I am on here as an intended future student and user/contributor to this sector. I’m into HE!

I do think that the HE sector is going to have a very hard time adjusting to the new world. The stream of high paying foreign students is drying up and the level of resistance to going online on this thread does not bode well for universities looking to diversify income streams.

This should already be in place, I was a pilot final year module administrator & my key role was setting up Canvas back in 2014 with no experience!

When did you last teach in a university, OP? You sound like you don't have a clue about the level of support students need and expect. There is a reason why the much-vaunted MOOCs which were apparently going to replace face-to-face teaching have done no such thing and instead have a huge drop-out rate.

Even so, my colleagues and I consistently observed a strong correlation between the students who attend lectures / tutorials and the pass rate

Correlation isn't causation, though.

The sanctimonious flowers thing some teaching/academic posters have decided to do is so juvenile and cliquey it's embarrassing. Which poster was it who said their university experience helped them learn to take criticism?

Leaannb Nope, I'll be delighted when my kids can resume their lab based degrees

So will I, and so will DD.

The logical fallacy of much of the posting on here is that the education/the modules/course content require campus life. They absolutely do not and there is little reason to withhold distance learning courses on this basis.

You really don’t get it do you? Do you honestly think that distance learning from a desk in a student’s bedroom will prepare them for the world of work?

You are making sweeping generalisations about young people who you assume are just like you, and happy to cocoon themselves in their bedrooms away from other people to get a degree. It is clear from the majority of responses on here that most students who go to university don’t want to do this.

As a student, I would absolutely not want to do my course online. Lectures could easily be done as recordings, fair enough. But a large part of what I pay for is tutorials (individual or very small group classes), seminars, and conversation classes, none of which work properly online/ over video call. Besides, I can only normally cope with the workload with the support of my friends doing the same subject. My university and friendship group is massively enriched by the presence of students from other countries. I also don't really understand the point of OP's idea that young people could pay to live with other young people with access to clubs etc and then have their teaching online - if they are moving away from home anyway, what is the point of doing the course online? And anyway, clubbing is not the reason most people choose to go to university. On the social side, there's student societies (orchestras, sports teams, debate clubs etc), none of which would work without the structure of a physical university.