To argue with the ILs?

[CaptainShakespeare]

ILs and I fundamentally disagree about religion (they're strict Catholics, I'm atheist). After a few heated exchanges when DH and I first got together (instigated by them) we've all silently agreed to a truce where we usually just don't mention it. Fine by me.

The only time it comes up nowadays is when they pester us to send the DCs to Catholic school. And also when they want the DCs baptised. And when they want us to go to church at Christmas. So actually, thinking about it, quite a lot. I have a standard response which I use to shut the conversation down along the lines of 'I'm not going to argue/explain why that's not happening because we won't agree and we don't need to agree as it's a decision for DH and me only.' This is usually enough to halt any potential argument, albeit with bad grace from their side.

We have a WhatsApp group with DH's immediate family. Tonight MIL has sent a joke about atheists that I find really enraging. The inference of the joke is that atheists are smug and stupid. MIL has followed up the joke with an explanation that she finds it so funny because the atheist subject has been 'put in his place' for 'thinking he knows best.' No acknowledgement that everyone with an opinion 'thinks they know best;' that's what faith or belief is!

For some reason it's really pissed me off. I want to say something. Maybe point out that I could reverse the joke to make it the same point against Catholics, but I wouldn't send that to her as it would be rude and upsetting to her.

For context, the group is MIL, FIL, their 2 adult DC and me. Neither DH nor his brother are religious, so it's not like it's a part of a family culture they all share that I've come in to. Also for context, generally aside from this we have a good relationship.

WIBU to say something? Is it the job of the DIL to step back in this situation because it's not 'my' family? Or do I have just as much right to say it's rude as MIL does to say it?

If this was a one off I'd let it go. It just feels like a constant imbalance where the only reason we aren't constantly arguing about this is I've learned not to react, not to retaliate, ignore and be nice, but to be honest I don't see why that's my role.

They're people who take great offence to being called out or criticised, but are perfectly happy to share their strong opinions themselves. If they were my friends I'd take a 'sauce for the goose' approach and say my piece, but am I expected to act differently because it's my ILs?

You could send this?

I'd reply:
'It's not just atheists that need 'putting in their place' as they think they know best. I know Catholics too who are smug and stupid.' Then leave the group

If she chooses to take it that you're referring to her then fuck it that's her choice, and you could deny it (weakly).

@ScotsinOz

"As for Easter, if you’re celebrating that, you’re not an atheist."

I think you need to accept that for a lot of non-religious people the terms Christmas and Easter are being used to describe non-religious celebrations now. When I celebrate Christmas, it's Christmas trees, Santa Claus, presents, Christmas dinner, time with family, and Slade. Easter means the bunnies, chicks, flowers, and chocolate eggs. Nothing religious enters them at all.

"non-believers who like to join in the party anyway, when a true atheist would not go to the party."

The fact that I pull Christmas crackers and eat mini eggs doesn't mean I believe in a god.

"If you don’t believe in anything (higher power etc) then the jokes shouldn’t upset you as there is nothing to be feared at death as you are just dead"

This literally doesn't make sense. Why would religious people insulting me not be something I'd argue against and get annoyed at, just because I see no evidence that anything happens to me after I'm dead?

@Bananacloud

"So faith should (by default) be stronger than opinion."

That's ridiculous. The claim that there is a god should be as open to evaluation as any other possible claim there could be. Is there ANY claim that a person couldn't justify just by saying "Well I have faith that it's true"?

"So if you truly do not believe in a god, having a baptism for them should not really matter to you. Words like “god” and “devil” and “Jesus” will jus be like any other words."

Nonsense. I'm guessing you're a Christian, so you don't believe Islam is true? Can we start getting your children to do the Islamic prayer? Because obviously if you don't believe in it, words like Allah and Mohammed will just be like any other words.

I'd just leave the Whatsapp group without a word of explanation. If you're asked for an explanation, refuse to give one.

It simply isn't worth engaging on this kind of level. Arguing with her is futile; you've already made your position clear and set down admirable boundaries about whose decision this is. There is really no more you need to say.

Stepping back is the only dignified option. It also has the added advantage of clipping her wings as it's no fun arguing with silence or trying to goad fresh air.

I have a seriously limited tolerance for this kind of BS, and commend you for your patience in dealing with this.

@Bananacloud genuinely to me your point makes no Sense whatsoever, help me understand.
My MiL has pushed the idea of a christening for no other reason than it’d be nice for my children to be able to get married in a church if they wanted to. This is literally her only reason for wanting a christening.

I cannot in good conscience have my children baptised, because I would have to stand up and lie that I will bring them up according to a faith I have no belief in. Those ‘words’ mean something to some people and atheists/agnostics can be respectful of other people’s belief’s without agreeing with them, just as they deserve to have their own views respected I.e not have constant digs and battles like the op is having.
Do you see what I mean?

Definitely best to ignore, but you could leave a few leaflets about woodland burials with humanist services lying around for them to notice next time they visit. Revenge is a dish best served cold! 🤭

I’d do that thing where you pretend not to ‘get’ a joke and make them explain exactly why they thought it was funny layer by layer until they have to admit it was sexist/racist/unkind

I think she is very rude, but obviously likes to have a dig at you.

I wouldn't acknowledge it.
But they do not sound like nice people.

Typical of some religious people...they find disbelief like yours, a personal affront.

As a lapsed Catholic, I find some Catholics to be the absolute worst.

Their ability to deny the Catholic Church's support and protection of decades of raping and abusing children is astonishing.

The next time she asks why you are not doing something re the church...you could answer as I did many years ago..."we don't support Religious organisations that suppport the rape of children"

See how many times she wants to hear that answer out of her mouth.

The person who asked me wasn't family or a friend, just a nosey acquaintance that needed putting in her place.

Out of your mouth!

A path I followed was never to give ils my mobile number...
Worked wonderfully for me...

Typical of some religious people...they find disbelief like yours, a personal affront.

As a lapsed Catholic, I find some Catholics to be the absolute worst.

My in-laws are Catholic. Being different in terms of life and outlook, personal style (anything other than the utmost conservatism), interests and general attitudes in life, is deeply discomfiting to them (FiL was fine, but MiL and SiL are really odd in this sort of way). Bookish, vaguely unconventional types like me seem to really get up their hooters.

I have numerous friends who are very different from me in life and outlook, and have never understood the sort of person whose only friends are people of their own profession, for instance. But my female in-laws have one simple attitude to any deviation from their values: 'different is bad'. When someone fails to measure up to their standards of how they think that person should fit into their personal world (and worldview), they can be insular, unkind and deeply unpleasant.

Needless to say, they don't have my mobile number.

I'd just quietly leave the group chat - and when your DH is asked why, I'd have him respond with 'because x has high standards regarding how you should treat other people. Do as you would be done by, and all that'...

If she can't spot a biblical reference she's a shitty Catholic.

My ils were Catholic. Had some odd ideas about the dc. Just shot them down ASAP as the crap started flowing...

Just forward links on to the group chat of every single news article about paedophile priests you come across. No explanation. Just the link

As everyone else says, just ignore her. Your DH’s response is actually very good.

She is clearly hoping for a reaction from you so the best response is ... nothing. Just smile and nod when you meet, ask after her health and avoid any discussion about faith.

If you have to reply, I’d reply to your husband about it bordering on racist agreeing with him and adding that “a very religious man once told me that God prefers kind atheists to hateful Christians. I wish more people of faith were like him.”

Or if you really want to wind her up, you should tell her that even though you don’t pray, that she is in your thoughts. What with the biggest locust plague in Africa going on right now and over a 100 tornadoes in States on Easter... plus half the world in lockdown... it must be a testing time for her faith and you know deep down she didn’t mean to sound so insulting toward your beliefs.

I don't think I'd respond, but I would be making a collection of Father Ted clips for future use. Down with this sort of thing!

“That sounded somewhat insulting MIL, but this atheist will do the Christian thing and turn the other cheek “

I would go the other way - I'd laugh it off. Send back loads of laughing emoji's with a 'haha - love it!' Comment. She wants to get under your skin. Allow her to think she has backfired hugely.
The facts are:

1. Your children will not be baptised and they have no say at all. There is literally nothing they can do about that.
2. You aren't going to church at Christmas. No matter how much they complain, you dont have to do it.
3. Your kids aren't going to Catholic school. Again, they can suck it, coz they dont get a say.

Smile and wave, OP. Smile and wave. And when she gets particularly nasty, smile and say 'oh mil, that's not very Christian of you, is it?'

I find religious people smug and stupid personally

@Nekoness
Love that religious man's quote👏👍

A huge mix of Catholic and CoE in our families that have never remarked on any decisions we have made.

Lots of deeply religious people who don't feel the need to comment on the choices of others.

I wouldn't tolerate it for a moment.

My nan always taught me that religion is like a hat. If someone tries to force you to wear their hat, they're an arsehole. If you try to knock their hat off, you're the arsehole. Just acknowledge that their hat makes them happy and you not having a hat makes you happy.

Disclaimer: this led to me responding to a particularly over zealous vicar locally by simply saying "I like your hat" a number of times and him being confused and my nan giggling like a schoolgirl. He has been volunteering with me recently and asked about this response and I explained. He likes the idea and now accepts that "Nice hat" is my boundary sentence

A person sending 'jokes' they know will be hurtful, inflammatory or both isn't practising any branch of Christianity. A Catholic knowingly taking potshots at others needs a thorough examination of conscience and - once available again - to go to confession!

OP, don't give your MiL the satisfaction of a reaction, it really isn't worth it.

Lol at purplecrowbars idea! Im so going to use random emojis in my in law whatsapp chat