To argue with the ILs?

[CaptainShakespeare]

ILs and I fundamentally disagree about religion (they're strict Catholics, I'm atheist). After a few heated exchanges when DH and I first got together (instigated by them) we've all silently agreed to a truce where we usually just don't mention it. Fine by me.

The only time it comes up nowadays is when they pester us to send the DCs to Catholic school. And also when they want the DCs baptised. And when they want us to go to church at Christmas. So actually, thinking about it, quite a lot. I have a standard response which I use to shut the conversation down along the lines of 'I'm not going to argue/explain why that's not happening because we won't agree and we don't need to agree as it's a decision for DH and me only.' This is usually enough to halt any potential argument, albeit with bad grace from their side.

We have a WhatsApp group with DH's immediate family. Tonight MIL has sent a joke about atheists that I find really enraging. The inference of the joke is that atheists are smug and stupid. MIL has followed up the joke with an explanation that she finds it so funny because the atheist subject has been 'put in his place' for 'thinking he knows best.' No acknowledgement that everyone with an opinion 'thinks they know best;' that's what faith or belief is!

For some reason it's really pissed me off. I want to say something. Maybe point out that I could reverse the joke to make it the same point against Catholics, but I wouldn't send that to her as it would be rude and upsetting to her.

For context, the group is MIL, FIL, their 2 adult DC and me. Neither DH nor his brother are religious, so it's not like it's a part of a family culture they all share that I've come in to. Also for context, generally aside from this we have a good relationship.

WIBU to say something? Is it the job of the DIL to step back in this situation because it's not 'my' family? Or do I have just as much right to say it's rude as MIL does to say it?

If this was a one off I'd let it go. It just feels like a constant imbalance where the only reason we aren't constantly arguing about this is I've learned not to react, not to retaliate, ignore and be nice, but to be honest I don't see why that's my role.

They're people who take great offence to being called out or criticised, but are perfectly happy to share their strong opinions themselves. If they were my friends I'd take a 'sauce for the goose' approach and say my piece, but am I expected to act differently because it's my ILs?

Just leave the group, and reduce contact as far as possible. Leave your DH to deal with them

Your DH has already responded?

Leave the group and leave them to it.

Leave the group.
If MIL is only using it for goady mean little jokes like this, you don't need it.
IF she has anything of importance to say, she'll have to contact you directly, or rely on her son to tell you. Assuming that he doesn't leave as well.
Deprive the sanctimonious old bat of an audience; she does not deserve one.

I would apply the rule “ignoring inappropriate behavior”, you know like with toddlers. I bet your MIL will be very annoyed. Leave the group and stay nice and polite. Also I would continue to discuss issues with your DH, just to work out your joint approach.

He has responded, which is what triggered the explanation as to why the joke is apparently funny. I was asking whether I should/could respond because, to be honest, the explanation pissed me off even more than the joke. He hasn't responded to that.

The explanation essentially says 'atheists believe there is no God, so they need putting in their place because it's arrogant for them to think they're right,' but doesn't acknowledge that Catholics believing there is a God also think they're right, but somehow this doesn't make them arrogant or deserving of putting in their place. It just means we disagree.

The injustice of it is getting to me. The fact that someone can say something that irrational and come away from it thinking they've 'won' the argument or made a good point because no one has disagreed, and not realise that in fact they've been intellectually stupid.

But (probably relevant) I have autism... i have no issue with people disagreeing with me, but I struggle to let it go when people are being illogical.

Just ignore her.

Says a lot about her if she is poking you for a reaction. She’d definitely fall in my estimation. Not very Catholic of her...

There you are, you just said it yourself.

She’s intellectually stupid —as is everyone who applies logic to religion which can only ever be about faith and belief— .

Leave her to it. You can’t argue with stupid. She needs to find another sounding board for her faith, she’s beginning to sound like Doubting Thomas.

My grandad was a strict catholic but really found the catholic jokes funny (was never offended by them)

But I wouldn't try to argue with them over faith as it's personal to each individual and you will never come to an agreement simply because they aren't going to change their view ( which they are entitled to) and your never going to change your view (which your entitled to)

She's just prodding you because she likes to push your buttons & get a reaction. If you rise to it, she's won. Ignore her.

Don’t say anything now but if she does it again, kill her with kindness.

It’ll likely frustrate her more.

You said “...I struggle to let it go when people are being illogical”, yet you mention celebrating Christmas.

As an atheist you don’t believe in God, or the birth and resurrection of Jesus, therefore you shouldn’t celebrate Christmas or Easter. However, you do, which is illogical if you are a true atheist.

Oh, I would have fun with this! There are some GREAT anti-religion memes out there.

Do not argue with people about politics or religion.

This is not abt religion. It is abt respect. Them to you, you to them but it is mostly you figuring out how to ignore them so your family is happy. You will not change them they will not change you. Ignore them.

It is wrong to discriminate against any religion. Even if it is your own country's predominate religion btw. (I am a nondenominational Christian and I am annoyed when someone is outraged that any religion except Christianity is insulted. It is not okay to make an exception of insulting Christianity as if it is the one religion that it is permissible to insult.)

Religion has little logic; it is based on faith, you will not find logic by anyone who is religious.

I used to tell a religious joke:

Woman died and went to heaven. It was as advertised: Paradise. St. Pete then took her on a tour. They eventuality came to a door in a very high brick wall.
He said, "you will have questions. Just wait until we get to the other side before you ask them"
They entered and it was Beautiful! But exactly the same as outside the wall. They walked to the other side, went out that door and closed it tightly.
The woman said, "why is it walled off? It is exactly like out here?"

St.Peter said, "oh it's for the XX's (Insert any religion). They think that they are the only ones up here."

I think that most religions fit that joke. Including the misc Christian denominations.

@ScotsinOz I disagree. When Christianity was introduced here (and elsewhere) the thinking was that it would be more readily accepted by the people if they blended the new Christian rituals with pre-existing festivals (Winter Solstice/ Yuletide). A festival of light and warmth and food and family in the bleakest part of winter. Hence Christians celebrating the birth of Jesus in December, when the best historical/theological evidence we have is that he was probably born sometime in Spring.

I'm happy for Christians to take a festival that belonged to all of society far before they came along, amend it and celebrate it in any way that makes them happy. As long as they don't tell me that their newer priorities mean the older ones of others can no longer exist.

I am a Christian and I can totally see why you are offended and upset. But I simply would not bother to rise to the 'bait'. If your MIL's faith is based around trying to score points against you then she has missed the point spectacularly! IMHO.

Take a look at Proverbs 25:21 and 22 and see if you can do the opposite of what she expects!

Catsinthecupboard it wasn't really her religion or religious views I was calling illogical. What I was calling illogical was her explanation that atheists are arrogant for thinking they're right, so they deserve to be the butt of this joke, without acknowledging that Catholics also think they're right. The whole point of any belief is that the person holding it thinks they're right about it. There's no necessary arrogance in believing your own beliefs to be right. So it's no more arrogant or deserving of being 'taken down' to believe that there is no God than to believe that there is.

It's basically assuming, with no basis, that someone is arrogant and belligerently holding on to their view simply because you disagree with it. Whereas someone who you agree with is not guilty of the same thing.

That's what I was calling illogical. The frustrating thing was she didn't seem able to see that, which is why I so wanted to point it out.

What do you “win” by pointing it out? Or arguing with them?

Frankly, you sound no better than your in laws, just from the other side.

If I posted an anti catholic joke to my catholic in laws to wind them up, for no reason, then justified it as excusable because Catholics are arrogant for thinking they're right about God, so they deserve taking down a peg or two, would my in laws be no better than me if they pointed out that that was hurtful, unnecessary and illogical? Really?

Yes.

As I posted, you are exactly the same, just coming at the issue from opposite sides.

Doing nothing is harder than it seems in instances like this, because it does often make the other party feel as though they have carte blanche to continue until you snap.

I'd resort to sarcasm but it wouldn't help the overall situation - along the lines of "but of course it's not at all arrogant for Catholics to believe that theirs is the only right way, is it".
But as I said, it wouldn't help.

Commenting on their "humour" wouldn't help either - but that would probably be something else I would consider - or you could go for the MN Standard Response of "did you mean to be so rude?"

But in all honesty, you NOT responding to it is the least troublesome response. Not necessarily the best - but will cause least problems going forward.

Actually, I know what I'd respond now - it would be "oh, the irony..."
and leave it at that.

I'd say your MIL has definitely got the reaction she wanted! Snide comment which has left you seething.

Why not just let it go, it is hardly going to achieve anything to make a row out of it. It sounds as though you do things your way so why worry.

Just leave it. If you leave it, she’ll never know you got wound up over it.

Imagine how delighted she’d be to know you gave her “joke” this much headspace!

I'd have left the group without saying anything. It would make MIL look bad for driving you away whereas if you rise to the bait and argue she'll be able to act like the victim

Tell her the kids are making a Jesus Fawkes for next bonfire night. 🤭