To argue with the ILs?

[CaptainShakespeare]

ILs and I fundamentally disagree about religion (they're strict Catholics, I'm atheist). After a few heated exchanges when DH and I first got together (instigated by them) we've all silently agreed to a truce where we usually just don't mention it. Fine by me.

The only time it comes up nowadays is when they pester us to send the DCs to Catholic school. And also when they want the DCs baptised. And when they want us to go to church at Christmas. So actually, thinking about it, quite a lot. I have a standard response which I use to shut the conversation down along the lines of 'I'm not going to argue/explain why that's not happening because we won't agree and we don't need to agree as it's a decision for DH and me only.' This is usually enough to halt any potential argument, albeit with bad grace from their side.

We have a WhatsApp group with DH's immediate family. Tonight MIL has sent a joke about atheists that I find really enraging. The inference of the joke is that atheists are smug and stupid. MIL has followed up the joke with an explanation that she finds it so funny because the atheist subject has been 'put in his place' for 'thinking he knows best.' No acknowledgement that everyone with an opinion 'thinks they know best;' that's what faith or belief is!

For some reason it's really pissed me off. I want to say something. Maybe point out that I could reverse the joke to make it the same point against Catholics, but I wouldn't send that to her as it would be rude and upsetting to her.

For context, the group is MIL, FIL, their 2 adult DC and me. Neither DH nor his brother are religious, so it's not like it's a part of a family culture they all share that I've come in to. Also for context, generally aside from this we have a good relationship.

WIBU to say something? Is it the job of the DIL to step back in this situation because it's not 'my' family? Or do I have just as much right to say it's rude as MIL does to say it?

If this was a one off I'd let it go. It just feels like a constant imbalance where the only reason we aren't constantly arguing about this is I've learned not to react, not to retaliate, ignore and be nice, but to be honest I don't see why that's my role.

They're people who take great offence to being called out or criticised, but are perfectly happy to share their strong opinions themselves. If they were my friends I'd take a 'sauce for the goose' approach and say my piece, but am I expected to act differently because it's my ILs?

She's trying to annoy you - don't give her the satisfaction of a response.
If she mentions it in person, I'd say 'I was raised to be kind and forgiving and not to look down on others'

Winterlife re "you are exactly the same, just coming at the issue from opposite sides."

Not the same, because the OP is not doing what her MIL does, she is not posting nasty jokes at someone else's expense.

Just ignore her. I mean ignore her.

Have nothing to do with her and if you must gave some interaction just reply "aww, did your little imaginary friend say that?" Ad infinitum.

But I'm a twat who wont take being walked over. Fortunately so is DP.

If you're spending your time thinking about and raging about religion as an atheist you're doing it wrong (and that goes for you too, Dawkins).

Ignore online and if she argues in person, the phrase you are looking for to use with MIL is "Mm-hm."

@CaptainShakespeare I agree that the celebration birth of Jesus has been rolled into Yulde, however it is unlikely that is the reason you celebrate Christmas. As for Easter, if you’re celebrating that, you’re not an atheist.

So many people call themselves atheists when they are really non-believers who like to join in the party anyway, when a true atheist would not go to the party.

If you don’t believe in anything (higher power etc), then the jokes shouldn’t upset you as there is nothing to be feared at death as you are just dead. Most people (including myself) laugh (or eye roll depending on the particular joke) at these things, even if directed at “my type” (Scottish and Catholic) - especially when most of these jokes include Scottish Catholics that are the complete opposite of me. I’m also married to a Protestant, so I’ve heard my fair share of anti-Catholic jokes (which are sometimes very funny!).

I totally understand. My MIL is a particularly frothy Christian, I'm on the fence. She's Korean, and Korean church is like the worst of American evangelical church. It's all about the money, right wing politics, whole life revolving around church. I used to go occasionally to placate her but now I refuse. She definitely wants us to bring the baby to church and I am not going to. British church is one thing, Korean church is just not happening because it's like a cult and nothing to do with Christianity.

She would never make a joke about it, she's far too serious about it for that. She's more likely to pray for my soul during grace or burst into tears because I won't go to church. She's not even trying to be manipulative, she's that brainwashed that she really means it.

It's awkward. She's great apart from this issue.

Op, don't leave the group. Instead, comment at your usual rate for the next few days then just let it tail off. If you're then asked why you're not commenting so often you can say something along the lines of, Ive just changed my online habits.

@ScotsinOz

I mean this politely but you're describing an antitheist rather than an atheist.

@Italiangreyhound, by her own admission, OP has had many arguments with her PIL. This is just the latest volley.

@TheNestedIf

An atheist doesn't BELIEVE (doesn't accept the evidence) that there is/are (a) god(s), and makes an ASSUMPTION (lays down tentatively as a hypothesis) that there are none.

An anti-theist BELIEVES (accepts the evidence) that there are no gods.

Either could apply to the OP, however either type of person truely does not believe then neither should celebrate religious events.

"Either could apply to the OP, however either type of person truely does not believe then neither should celebrate religious events."

Easter and Christmas are as much cultural as religious in the west these days.

If people want to celebrate, let them. Not everything has to be as rigid as you're making it out to be.

@ScotsinOz

The dictionary definitions are:

Atheist - a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Antitheist - opposed to belief in the existence of a god or gods.

As the former, I could still attend all the parties. As the latter, I could not. It's about the opposition, not the lack of belief.

I'm not going to debate this further but only because, as said, religion, or the lack of, is not something I really want to consume my thinking. Hope, kindly, to see you on another thread.

I'd leave the group and cut her out.

I personally would not officially leave the group, I just wouldn’t bother to look at messages or add anything for a good while...... Leave them wondering....

Agree with Winterlife. You sound just as bad with your superiority about women's rights etc.
She has her opinion just as you have yours. You will never agree. It's her group even though it's the family group. so just leave. she will know why.

If she's posting stuff that's unpleasant about non-beleivers, she's not really being very Christian, imo.

I might just restrict my responses to that.

I would def leave it. I can't see what you gain from it as she won't change.

Your DH’s response was perfect.

There is no point in anyone else responding to MIL.

“So I learned not to engage, and feel like I've been primed into a 'put up and shut up' role where they can continue to say what they want without consequence”

Well, they do have a right to their belief. You are in a position where you don’t like illogicality and think you can address illogicality with debate. But in terms of religion, you can’t. The whole point of religion (Christian faith, other monotheistic religions) is faith. Believing without proof. There is an absolute dichotomy between a faith based belief and empirical thought and practice.

Of course being religious doesn’t give her the right to be rude about atheists. Your DH has pointed that out. She had taken refuge in her absolute belief in God.

Just shrug. You won’t gain anything by retaliating, so why engage in squabbling.

The whole world is beleaguered by ‘off’ jokes on WhatsApp at the moment.

Just reply with a 'thumbs up' emoji. Nothing else. Every time.

I don't understand why you need to be in this group?

I am assuming DH is in it?

Just leave it.

Some posters are missing the point. OP thinks she is right, in laws think they are - OP is acknowledging this. The point is that to (in a barely veiled attempt) attack the OP and essentially call her arrogant, and ignorant, IS RUDE!!!!!!!

I wouldn’t be able to resist saying something like “sorry you think I’m so arrogant 🤷🏻‍♀️“ and leave the group chat/have very little to do with them. Any follow up should just be responded to with something pointing out that they have been rude. Just like OP if she messaged some joke saying “all catholics are cunts” would be extremely rude...

I can poke and poke and wind you up and you can't do anything about it' that enrages me more

Absolutely, don't give her the satisfaction of your reaction.

Would it help you to think of her as wanting that reaction soooo badly that she has to keep on poking at it.

You are in a position to deny her that reaction. It will be driving her mad.

The minute you react, you have lost and she has won.

You could reply with this

The response is "I don't find that a particualrly Christian attitude" Catholics are generally a bunch of hypocites except the nice ones that would be nice anyway catholic or not. I find the "Catholic" catholics parsimonious and mean. And I come from a strongly catholic family on Mums side

This would really infuriate me!
Whenever I feel like people are being unintentionally offensive, I always bring it to their attention and address it gently (as I hope people would do for me).

BUT my typical response when I know that somebody is intentionally trying to rile me is to either completely blank them or pretend to find them mildly amusing. They end up a lot more infuriated than me... works every time :)

In this case, straight after her 'joke' I would have added something entirely unrelated to the WhatsApp group- e.g. what's everyboody doing to stave off the lock-down boredom this evening?
Completely take the wind out of her sails- do this every time she posts something offensive or snide.