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Does anyone actually think we are getting the 80%

261 replies

ChrissieKeller61 · 14/04/2020 11:00

By whatever method ... been chatting to business owners on linkedin and there is a growing feeling that they've no intention of paying this and it's literally a bone been thrown to stop the plebs rioting whilst the lockdown occurs. The USA and Australia have put actual money into peoples accounts. We have been given interest occurring holidays and a promise

OP posts:
StatisticallyChallenged · 14/04/2020 13:12

Was that aimed at me Q?

ClientQ · 14/04/2020 13:17

I know it's not furlough but my relative applied for the business grant, and was worrying over whether they qualified etc etc. They've just received 25k after all the worry Smile and it came through v quickly

ginnybag · 14/04/2020 13:18

I can see both sides of this, tbh.

I fully understand that creating from scratch a system to manage this will take time, a lot of work and that there will be cock-ups That's true of any new system thrown together like this. I'm sympathetic to that and I don't think there will be a deliberate intention not to pay.

BUT, what's making businesses nervous is that they have actually dealt with HMRC before - and what they know and the public don't is that HMRC is notoriously, famously, completely and utterly incapable of managing its existing tasks to any sort of standard, much less coping with something this new and hurried. Its existing IT is shit, isn't integrated across departments, its records keeping is shockingly poor and staff actioning tasks and communicating adequately and on time scales that would be acceptable in any other field just doesn't happen.

Bluntly, they've been hiding for years behind 'we're HMRC - everything is YOUR fault, you pay your accountant to fix OUR error', and now they're going to struggle, because they don't have the beginnings of the set up or the capacity to do what the government has promised they will. RTI (which will be the basis for eligibility) is glitched as anything and resolutions to Revenue caused (not business caused) errors literally take years, (and I do mean that exactly as I say it - actual years).

Anyone who thinks the Revenue will manage this seamlessly and with good style, has simply never dealt with them. Businesses know that and they're nervous.

Coupled that with the fact that this is supposed to be a 'refund' of wages already paid and 'nervous' will become, for a lot, 'untenable'. There's a rhetoric in the country of 'fat-cat' directors raking it in and businesses swimming in cash and just saving it up to pay dividends instead of more wages as a choice and , while that may be true in some cases, it certainly isn't for a majority. Payroll is often a companies' biggest bill, and a lot of none-trading businesses will already have used up their cash-at-hand on the end of March payroll and the trade debts which fell due then. They just won't have the funds to make payment without this money coming in first.

There are a thousand things that could have been done to ease this - the biggest and simplest of which would have been offsetting falling due PAYE as a start. If they'd done this in early or mid-March, then this would have relieved businesses of the need to transfer INTO HMRC by the 22nd of March and of April. The PAYE due bill is around 1/3 of net pay to staff on average, so 'standing down' those two payments would have given a lot of business an immediate boost of 2/3 of the End April payroll run - not far at all from the promised 80%.

And, to make it worse, the loan scheme that should have plugged this shortfall isn't working. Banks aren't set up to cope with the demand and a lot haven't stuck to the spirit of it at all and have been coming up with crazy schemes like 22% interest loans secured against directors' homes and not offering the government backed loan at all.

Pamelaandthepinecones · 14/04/2020 13:18

Ok, StatisticallyChallenged if I read something that wasn't there, apologies.

I understand how government works, or rather the Civil Service having been in now for three years. As QforCucumber details, stuff is happening it really is, and it's only been three weeks. I think that's pretty good actually but a lot of posters seems to be posting about how plans are hopeless, not working etc.

QforCucumber · 14/04/2020 13:22

@StatisticallyChallenged no, just a general observation that some seem to be under the impression this was all set up before being announced rather than the other way round :)

StatisticallyChallenged · 14/04/2020 13:24

Oh no, i know fine well it wasn't. As it was announced I have no doubt that thousands of civil servants around the country went "ah fuck. This is going to be fun"

The banks failing miserably to manage the loan scheme is a huge issue in all this too.

QforCucumber · 14/04/2020 13:25

@ginnybag a number of our clients have spoken to HMRC and delayed their PAYE and NI payments due for 3 months, in a couple of cases 6 months. Weve given them assistance with this too, there is the facility in place to do this -and has been there since the end of March.

MintyMabel · 14/04/2020 13:30

Sure, the government in exceptional circumstances made a very public announcement about paying businesses. They are bound not to pay it, that’s not going to cause them any problems at all now, is it. 🙄

BiBabbles · 14/04/2020 13:37

I really would not envy Americans right now. As Dyrne said, the US is doing it through the tax system which is entirely different to the UK's. Even when money is directly taken out of paychecks, people are expected to file and many get rebates at the end of the year due to deductibles and all sorts. Those whose income is too low to hit the filing requirement, especially those self-employed, are currently scrambling to get paperwork in and government workers are struggling to deal with that.

Many American abroad organisations have been recommending Americans abroad who don't already file to just leave that both due to the likely delays with the difficulties already happening and because the 'money going into people's accounts' in the US, at this point (I can see it changing if there is a strong enough, but I doubt it), is going to be put against future rebates. It's essentially a loan set against an individual's future taxes that will be protected in some states - in my home state, the 'stimulus check' can't be taken away for debts, but not everyone will get that. Americans abroad definitely won't get that protection and we'll lose more meeting filing requirements going forward than we'll get.

I know there is already COVID-heroes and twats company lists making the rounds, I imagine it will be expanded when reports of how furloughed employees are treated. I know some that are topping up to the 100% for furloughed and additional for those continuing to work.

Starlyte · 14/04/2020 13:40

I believe they've started in France, too, and are talking of cutting certain payments due to the State, but that's talk, once again. They are giving out shopping checks too, to the really poor, such as those waiting for citizenship.
All Govs talk, good to hear some act too !

HoldMyLobster · 14/04/2020 13:51

The USA have given $1200 dollars which in several cities won’t go far at all and then washed their hands of them.

The USA has done three main things.

  • A one off payment of $1200 paid through the IRS (and no, you don't have to file your 2019 tax return to get it).
  • Increased unemployment benefit by $600 per week, and opened it up to the self-employed and gig workers.
  • Made loans/grants available to small businesses that do not have to be repaid if they use them to keep people on payroll - these have already started going into people's accounts.

I wouldn't call this 'washing their hands of them'.

RedRedScab · 14/04/2020 13:55

I haven't heard anything from HMRC about the 80% self-employment grant, so I've no idea if/when I'm going to get it. Had to borrow money from my dad to do the food shop and I'm nearly 50.

ALovelyBitOfSquirrel · 14/04/2020 13:58

literally a bone been thrown to stop the plebs rioting whilst the lockdown occurs

Plebs? You mean the all people that were working and now can't because the company they work for is temporarily closed? Lovely term Hmm

The company pays and they claim it back from the Government. Do you really believe they would make it up and then refuse to pay people?!

Tomorrowisanewday · 14/04/2020 14:00

I run a small company, and the information I have received from HMRC is that the refunds for wages need to be claimed, and that it is envisaged that the weblink to do that will be open from the 20th. My accountants have said they think that HMRC will carry out checks against February payroll, but to keep all paperwork, including furlough letters, because there will be a HUGE amount of audit carried out by HMRC when things return to normal.

My employees went on furlough on the 27th March, so have been paid to end of March. I will pay them at the end of April from company funds if available, if not, I will have to pay them from my own savings, and replace them when clients pay outstanding invoices or HMRC issues the grant. I am topping up their wages to 100%, because it is almost impossible to get good staff in my line of business. I know there are employers out there who treat staff badly, and aren't doing these things, but I need to be sure that when the world restarts, my staff feel I am worth coming back to work for.

Brefugee · 14/04/2020 14:03

I believe they've started in France, too, and are talking of cutting certain payments due to the State, but that's talk, once again. They are giving out shopping checks too, to the really poor, such as those waiting for citizenship.
All Govs talk, good to hear some act too !

In Germany companies can register to put their staff on restricted hours (Kurzarbeit) - say 50% of the usual. Which means probably 20 hours per week instead of 40. The employee gets 50% of their salary for these hours (so: full hourly rate but half of what they usually get). The government then tops up 60% (for singles) or 67% (for married people) of the rest of the pay. So if you usually get EUR 2,000 per month, you will get EUR 1,000 from your employer and EUR 600 (or EUR 670) from the government. It is all paid by your employer.
Additionally: the employers contribution to tax/health insurance/pension payments (which is around 20% of the gross salary) are suspended for the duration of the short hours.

The only proviso is that the employees have to clock-in and out somehow (usually excel sheet if they don't have an actual system for that)

Pamelaandthepinecones · 14/04/2020 14:03

...some seem to be under the impression this was all set up before being announced rather than the other way round

This. We are playing catch-up.

StatisticallyChallenged · 14/04/2020 14:04

Interesting re USA system - i was vaguely aware of their system with rebates but no exposure to it myself.

Seem a few people trying to start employer shit lists - don't get me wrong there are some who will be actual shits I'm sure but plenty just can't afford to top up or pay bonuses for example.

littleeasterbonnet · 14/04/2020 14:05

We had a letter from a customer today (who owes us thousands, but anyway) which said that at the moment, they will not be paying any suppliers at all, as they are keeping all their money to pay furloughed staff. The letter says that until they have received confirmation from the government that they will be reimbursed for the furlough sums, they have to think of their staff and pay them instead of us and their other suppliers. So at least they are looking after their employees.

userxx · 14/04/2020 14:07

@StatisticallyChallenged It's insider info :)

MamaGee09 · 14/04/2020 14:09

The company I work for is a huge national company who have the funds to pay us until the furlough money is issued. My husbands company is a small family run business which doesn’t have the funds to pay out so he isn’t having to wait until the government money arrives. Whenever that may be.

ToastyFingers · 14/04/2020 14:10

DH gets paid weekly and has been paid 80% for the last few weeks.

WaterIsWide · 14/04/2020 14:10

.

jenkimr · 14/04/2020 14:27

not a chance it won't happen! it may be delayed though xx

VoiceOfCommonSense · 14/04/2020 14:36

@ChrissieKeller61 in Australia they haven’t started paying people the “Job Keeper Payment” yet. This is $1500 per fortnight paid directly to the employer from May 1st who then passes on to the employees in payroll. People who were already on income or disability support were eligible for a one off payment of $750 which has started to be paid out and they also doubled unemployment allowance for new and existing claimants which makes no sense as existing claimants aren’t any worse off now. Unemployment benefit is also means tested so if your spouse or partner is still working and earning over the threshold then you will get less.

AvalancheKit · 14/04/2020 14:51

I haven't heard anything from HMRC about the 80% self-employment grant, so I've no idea if/when I'm going to get it. Had to borrow money from my dad to do the food shop and I'm nearly 50.

You have to put a bit of effort in and do a quick search on HMRC's website and see that they will contact you.

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