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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Does my mum owe my money, or AIBU?

199 replies

Toddlertown · 07/04/2020 21:00

Genuinely conflicted on this, so need some non biased opinions.

I’ll try to keep it brief.

When I was in my early 20s my mum split with her then partner, she had enough money for a deposit on a flat but couldn’t borrow enough on her earnings alone so I went on the mortgage with her. She did not live there, she lived with her new partner.

I lived in the flat with a flat mate & we split the mortgage & all bills equally so mum had no expenses.

Two years later, she sold the flat for 30k more than she bought it for, she then went on to buy a house with her partner & I went back into private rental.

I gained nothing from it but I never expected/wanted to. It helped my mum out & I thought at the time, it didn’t really make any difference to my life so that was that.

Fast forward some years & I now have a partner & young children of my own. We have recently been looking into buying after being left a generous, but not huge amount of money from DPs nan.

Now going through the mortgage application, I have found out because I am not considered a first time buyer (because of the flat with mum when younger, despite no financial gain.) the stamp duty for us is almost 5k more then it would be if I hadn’t had that mortgage in my name. 😮

5k is a huge amount of difference!! & I never knew this!

Now my AIBU..!

AIBU for thinking my mum should be responsible for paying the increased amount? I can’t bare the thought of asking her & feel like I’m being a shitty person. But equally I didn’t gain a single dime from that flat but now I’m looking at being 5k down because of it and that doesn’t seem fair either?

YABU - it’s your responsibility to pay the extra
YANBU - your mum should help you

Thanks!

OP posts:
fruitbrewhaha · 07/04/2020 21:49

Another thing is - if your DM had a mortgage on the property but did not live there, did she have an owner/occupier mortgage or buy-to-let? I wonder whether she may actually have committed some kind of fraud if it was an owner/occupier mortgage.

Really? Why does that matter?

She really should have shared the profit when it sold. It was your flat too, in your name, but you would have needed to agree the split as she was able to to put down the deposit. I think you were a bit green and she took advantage really. You lived there, paid your half of the mortgage and had to share with another person and all that entails. Did you arrange the other tennant? Was it a friend of yours?

SarahAndQuack · 07/04/2020 21:50

Hang about.

How much was the deposit she paid?

I agree she owes you 15k of the profit, but you should deduct from that 15k whatever is half the deposit, which she paid on her own.

Poppygirl96 · 07/04/2020 21:51

Pardon me but I’m confused? You haven’t lost out on anything as you were paying her rent towards the mortgage with your roommate which is what you both would have been paying anyway when renting elsewhere? If you live in the place the bills have to be paid as well as the mortgage? Why would she pay for a mortgage to a house she’s not living in? That’s the whole point of her renting it out?

So it’s not really like she made much profit during you living there. You should have thought about the consequences of joining with her on the purchase of a property and how it would affect you in the future. Other than that she doesn’t really owe you anything as you didn’t help contribute to the deposit.

Although if we are talking morally then yes without your help she wouldn’t have had the house or would have had to rent it to awful people and she can trust you in it. So yeah she should help you with the 5k at the least she can do.

Yellowandgreen · 07/04/2020 21:52

I think you would have benefitted by having to pay a reduced ‘rent’ while living in it, wouldn’t you? (I’m assuming the mortgage repayment was less than what you’d be paying in a private rental). Surely that was the deal at the time? I don’t think you can ask for anything extra now if you didn’t discuss it.

stanski · 07/04/2020 21:52

Unless I've missed some part, that isn't actually correct. The extra stamp duty is based on already having property AT the time you purchase the new one. If she sold it back then and your name is currently not on any other property then you are treated as a FTB in respect to stamp duty charges and won't be charged the extra. Your mortgage broker/solicitor will confirm this.

Original poster
Toddlertown · 07/04/2020 21:54

I really don’t feel entitled to any of the profit, however much she made & neither do I want it. I done it to help my mum & that was that.

The issue is I didn’t know it would end up costing me 5k years later... but then neither did she.

OP posts:
Viviennemary · 07/04/2020 21:54

She did make £30k profit on the house in a very short time. Did you get any share of that profit. If not I think she should give you the 5K since you are at a disadvantage because you helped her out.

Khione · 07/04/2020 21:55

Agree with others that if you bought the house jointly then you should have had half the profit. You were living there, you paid your half of the mortgage and paid rent which covered her half.

BUT that didn't happen.

At this point it would be difficult to enforce the above.

If you were my daughter, you would have had half the profit it wouldn't matter about 'owing it you', I would be more than happy to help you out with the extra money if I could afford it.

Can't you just talk to her and explain your situation. If you have a good relationship I really hope she will help.

I don't think demanding will help though - that would put my back up even if I partly agreed with you.

Original poster
Toddlertown · 07/04/2020 21:56

@stanski this isn’t what my mortgage broker has told me.

OP posts:
BoomBoomsCousin · 07/04/2020 21:56

disorganisedsecretsquirrel I would say the mother would be entitled to a reasonable additional profit for the use of her money for the deposit.

If it wasn't tied up in the house she could have invested it elsewhere and made money from that. OP did not have assets tied up in the house that could have been earning for her. So OP's gain from the house should reflect the lesser investment.

Yellowandgreen · 07/04/2020 21:56

I’m sorry I just read your post on the first page that said it would have been about the same as renting privately.

I think bring it up gently and go from there... I think if she’s reasonable she’ll help you, like you helped her

PlanDeRaccordement · 07/04/2020 21:56

Don’t feel silly. You trusted your mother. If you can’t trust your mother...then who can you trust? Don’t blame yourself for not being clued into what was going on. Your mother should have put you on the house deed as part owner since you were on the mortgage loan and paying half of the mortgage payment. She should have split all profit with you. She is old enough to know this is what she should have done and she should have used it as an opportunity to teach you about this kind personal finance situation. Instead, she kept you in the dark and profited off your credit and your mortgage payments.

She can still make it right by taking out a home equity loan (also called second mortgage) on her new house and giving you that £15k. It will have increased in value enough for her to do that and pay you back.

SarahAndQuack · 07/04/2020 21:58

@Toddlertown, how much was the deposit?

Alsohuman · 07/04/2020 21:58

So it’s not really like she made much profit during you living there

She made £30k in two years. That’s a lot of money in my world. It’s £30k she wouldn’t have had without OP allowing her to buy in the first place.

If I were your mum I’d be paying your stamp duty, OP.

stanski · 07/04/2020 21:59

'If you are buying an additional property or are buying a home and may end up owning two properties even just temporarily, you have to pay extra stamp duty'

hoa.org.uk/advice/guides-for-homeowners/i-am-buying/stamp-duty-for-second-homes/ (link to home owners advice website)

powkin · 07/04/2020 22:00

It would have been nice if she’d offered you a small thank you when she sold it if she made such a big profit on it, especially if you were renting at market value.

If I could easily get a mortgage without it perhaps I wouldn’t bother but it sounds like it makes a big difference to your future prospects so I’m sure if she can help she will given that you helped her to get the mortgage and effectively paid it!

I’d lay out the facts and the ask, you’re not a CF for doing so, especially as you didn’t know it would impact your future prospects.

Azadewow · 07/04/2020 22:01

Op think of it this way...

Your help benefited ur mum by 30k
Your help also has now set u back 5k

Even if u didn't feel personally entitled to the profit, u were legally entitled to 15k.
Which means u are 20k worse off than you could have been. Equate that to how much help that would be for getting on the property ladder....

iano · 07/04/2020 22:01

I think Stanski is right. You need to raise this with your solicitor.
When we bought our house our mortgage advisor gave us some cock and bull story about having to pay CGT on the property we were selling despite us living in it.
Defo worth checking what you have been told is right.

Wilmslow · 07/04/2020 22:03

So if you were ‘on’ her original mortgage you must have also been on the property deeds and should have been given your share of the sale proceeds when she sold. You may have just been a guarantor on her mortgage in which case you must have signed something to take the risk. Obviously she should return the favour!

Original poster
Toddlertown · 07/04/2020 22:03

@stanski

Found this on Zoopla.

Q. What's the definition of a first-time buyer?

A. Someone who has never owned a property or any share of one – whether bought, gifted or inherited – at any time during their life, either inside or outside of the UK.

In addition, you will need to live in the home you are buying as your only residence – and not be planning to rent it out.

OP posts:
Thingscanonlygetwetter · 07/04/2020 22:05

If this was anyone else other than your mum you’d surely be claiming you’d been ripped off.
I can’t believe she didn’t give you the share of the profits.
Tell her she owes you £15k but will accept £5k

Isadora2007 · 07/04/2020 22:05

I doubt that a mortgage payment being covered was what you’d have paid like for like as a renter. So I reckon you’d have saved thousands anyway. I would suck it up.

HarrySnotter · 07/04/2020 22:05

I'm a bit confused (I think). Do you mean you had a joint mortgage with your mum and when you sold the flat - jointly owned by you both - she kept all the profit?

If that's what you mean then your mum was completely and totally out of order. That wasn't all her money to keep.

stanski · 07/04/2020 22:05

That's correct, you are not a first time buyer, but for stamp duty purposes you are counted as such, unless you own any other property (or a % of it).

I work in property. I would ask your solicitor for clarification.

misskick · 07/04/2020 22:06

Surely if you were on the mortgage and paid it you were entitled to a share of the profit, as you wasnt renting it you were on the mortgage. regardless wether she needed the money when sold it was wrong and surely she knew that.