Boris moved to ICU

[YeahWhatevver]

www.itv.com/news/2020-04-06/prime-minister-boris-johnson-moved-to-intensive-care-after-being-admitted-to-hospital-with-coronavirus/

I'm the last person to say anything nice about Boris but I don't believe he was in the ICU if he hadn't needed to be and, to be fair, he was elected on a manifesto to increase spending on two key public services: the NHS and the police. This was his (successful) offer to the Red Wall. The destruction of the NHS was down to Cameron and Osborne (and Hunt). MPs generally vote with the whip - this is an inevitable consequence of our system.

(Never voted Tory in my life, btw.)

Which the Tories won.

And therefore this is a Tory government and a Tory Prime Minister in the hot seat.

Which means it's a Tory government and Prime Minister getting the scrutiny and criticism. Obviously.

It was also a Tory government for years up till now. The Tories own this.

What is this weird shit I keep seeing, where people seem to claim democracy is something that happens for one day every five years – and the rest of the time whichever government is in power should be beyond scrutiny or criticism?

Even people who voted Tory, and who voted Tory specifically 'cos Boris gives them warm and fuzzies, are allowed to criticise his decision to boast he was shaking hands. They're allowed to criticise the decision by the Tory government not to acquire more PPE after the 2016 Exercise Cygnus, because of the Tory policy of Austerity.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/28/exercise-cygnus-uncovered-pandemic-warnings-buried-government/

Crying that it is "authoritarian" to hold the government to account is like something out of Alice Through the Looking-Glass.

Sigh. Most votes cast in the recent GE were not for the Tories. Most votes were for parties to the left of the Tories. This means the claim that we know the anti Johnson views from left wingers on this thread aren't representative because he got an 80 seat majority, when that came from about 43% of votes cast, doesn't work.

None of this is remotely controversial btw, or even debatable.

Johnson was still part of a government that oversaw cuts to NHS spending in real terms katy.

Although to be fair, I can't even work out what a PP is claiming is "authoritarian", because it's just a splurge of catch-phrases jumbled together.

But they definitely seem to be upset that the government of the day, the one in power during a crisis, is getting criticism or scrutiny during the crisis.

But ‘left of centre’ doesn’t really mean anything.
Because if al these ‘left of centre’ people wanted the same thing, they would have voted for the same party.

As I said, you can make stats say whatever you want them to.

That’s hardly a controversial statement either

I think vast majority of voters in the UK are in the centre but not really represented...they are forced to choose between left and right and more go to the right.

But ‘left of centre’ doesn’t really mean anything. Because if al these ‘left of centre’ people wanted the same thing, they would have voted for the same party.

Yes it does, it means left of centre. Them not wanting all the exact same thing is further irrelevance. What's important here is that they wanted parties and candidates who were to the left of the Tories and none of those parties came out and supported the way the Tories have defunded the NHS in their decade of power.

As I said, you can make stats say whatever you want them to. That’s hardly a controversial statement either

It's not so much controversial as plain wrong. You cannot make the stats show anything other than minority support for Johnson and the Tories in the 2019 elections. If you try to do so, you will be incorrect.

I think vast majority of voters in the UK are in the centre but not really represented...they are forced to choose between left and right and more go to the right

This is very true. I am a Labour voter usually and a centrist. Nothing would have induced me to vote for the virtue signalling, women hating, id politics riddled, anti-Semitic mess that the LP has become.

Johnson was still part of a government that oversaw cuts to NHS spending in real terms katy

Yes, which is why I mentioned the whip. I am devil's advocating since I am as unTory as they come. But in fairness to Boris, once in leadership his immediate change to the party was to promise to reinvest in the police and the NHS. It was just his hard luck that the pandemic came before he could do it and he's left holding Cameron, Osborne and Hunt's baby.

This is not to say I like Boris - just to contextualise the situation.

I think vast majority of voters in the UK are in the centre but not really represented...they are forced to choose between left and right and more go to the right

I think the British population is quite centrist but slightly to the left on the economy (NHS, renationalising stuff, etc) but slightly to the right on social stuff (anti IDpol, lower immigration, etc).

It's often said that the right finds it easier to move on the economy to attract voters than the left does to move on social stuff. I think that's true.

I think the British population is quite centrist but slightly to the left on the economy (NHS, renationalising stuff, etc) but slightly to the right on social stuff (anti IDpol, lower immigration, etc)

I think this is absolutely correct.

I consider myself to be a centrist. Slightly to the left probably, but still a centrist. I really struggled at the last election because the choice was between hard left and hard right. I know a lot of people who felt the same.

I agree formerbabe. I am a centrist but I voted for Corbyn becuase I knew most people would swing the other way and vote for the tories. The best oucome for me would have been a hung parliament.

I spoiled my ballot.

Also I do not think that being opposed to the onslaught of identity politics is necessarily a right wing thing - more of a common sense, rooted in bioogy and material reality thing.

The Left have chosen to 'identify' with it for some unknown reason though so I understand where you are coming from.

biology

Yes, which is why I mentioned the whip. I am devil's advocating since I am as unTory as they come. But in fairness to Boris, once in leadership his immediate change to the party was to promise to reinvest in the police and the NHS. It was just his hard luck that the pandemic came before he could do it and he's left holding Cameron, Osborne and Hunt's baby.

This is not to say I like Boris - just to contextualise the situation.

Sure I see what you're doing, I just think it's extremely important to be clear about what his level of culpability is here. Is he as responsible as some others in his party, no. Nonetheless he doesn't deserve any cookies for wanting to partially mitigate some of the things he voted for and bears collective responsibility for, since he was in Cabinet during some of the period when the NHS was gutted.

The Left have chosen to 'identify' with it for some unknown reason though so I understand where you are coming from.

Depends on the part of the left. Morning Star, have been stellar on the threat to women from the trans ideology. I despise Communism as an ideology but one thing they do tend to be better at than others is understanding the need for structural analysis.

I don't personally trust any of the major parties on that particular issue though, all of them contain individuals with very dirty hands. So I do see why you felt you had to spoil your ballot.

Would also point out that a lot of the discourse around Brexit and immigration has been rooted in identity politics, it just gets called something different when white people do it.

You are right about Morning Star. But then I guess they understand class analysis rather better than most.

I do not completely understand your last comment though? Can you explain?

About identity politics? I mean there are people are pro Brexit because they viewed it primarily through the prism of identity and they feel particularly British and English, not European. For the same reason they don't like the idea of more immigration. These are all right wingers. But we don't always identify white British people making decisions on the basis of their white British identity and feeling they want to promote the interests of white British people as identity politics, even when we'd do the same if they held those views based on belonging to a different ethnicity, or on religion, class etc.

There's a lot written about identity politics and Brexit, it's very interesting. Before all this I'd say a distinct Remain identity had developed too. Not sure how it will play out post pandemic, especially if as seems unavoidable we extend the transition period.

Sure I see what you're doing, I just think it's extremely important to be clear about what his level of culpability is here. Is he as responsible as some others in his party, no. Nonetheless he doesn't deserve any cookies for wanting to partially mitigate some of the things he voted for and bears collective responsibility for, since he was in Cabinet during some of the period when the NHS was gutted.

Indeed. That said, it is convention that they don't vote in Parliament against any manifesto commitments that won a party an election. Rebellions against party in parliament are almost always over legislation for policies not explicitly in the manifesto.

Boris's manifesto this time round promised significant levels of money to the police and to the NHS. Like I say: his offer to the Red Wall and it won him the election. I think he would have put the money in - but obviously I don't think he would have upped spending on all the other public services gutted under austerity. I hate to say it: he's more canny than we give him credit for. Sadly (for him) the pandemic came before any money could be spent so we'll never know now.

And that is quite enough defending Boris on my part. Another post doing it and I might break out in hives!

Yes, stop before it damages your health!

There are conventions, and obviously most MPs will vote along with their party the majority of the time, but he is in that position only because he chose to remain a member of and stand for elected office for a party that was systemically defunding the NHS. He had choices and is responsible for them.

He's canny, certainly: his decision to support Leave rather than Remain was based on what he thought would get him to No 10 quickest and it worked. But that's a separate point to his culpability for the state the NHS is in now and the lives that's already cost and will now cost.