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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Man with persistent cough shopping with partner - just why?!?

636 replies

Defenbaker · 02/04/2020 23:17

I went shopping today, for essential items, to a large supermarket. There was a small queue, with a security guard letting people enter as others left, to ensure social distancing inside. All very calm and not many people inside, so that was good.

However, in the second aisle there was a man coughing. I thought, oh well, it's probably nothing, just an ordinary cough, don't panic. I avoided him anyway, just in case. However, he then kept on coughing, at regular intervals, all around the shop. He never once used a tissue, or even his hand or the crook of his arm to catch the cough, and the cough was just the sort of dry, persistent cough that medics have described as a symptom! Regardless of whether he had the Covid19 virus or not, he was certainly not being careful to keep his germs to himself. I wondered how many people he could be infecting.

Although I tried my best to avoid him, he then appeared quite near me, where I was using the self scan till. This conversation took place:

Me: "It might be a good idea if you wait outside while your partner does the shopping, as you have a cough."

(He looked stunned, as though the idea hadn't occurred to him.)
Him: "Oh, it's just a cough, I don't have a temperature!"

Me: "That's a symptom, you might have it, you don't know."
Him: "I've been to the doctor... I don't have it."

Me: "So, have you had the test then? Did you have a negative result?"
Him: "The doctor said I'm fine... " (He looked shifty, like he was tempted to lie but found it difficult while I fixed my gaze on him.)
Me: "Even if you haven't got it, people are bound to be anxious when you're coughing all over the store. It really would be best if you wait outside."
Him: "Mmm... maybe... "

All the time his partner said nothing. I got the impression she was a bit embarassed to be with him, as she knew how others would view his germ ridden presence.

He then sloped off. AIBU to think that he had no reason to accompany another (able bodied) adult around the shop, and should have known better than to behave so thoughtlessly during this health crisis?

OP posts:
Inkpaperstars · 04/04/2020 22:05

@peterlon1

You are not correct that underlying conditions are always the cause of death in covid patients. Unless you are simply classing being human and mortal as an underlying condition. Doctors literally could not be clearer about this. The fittest person with no underlying condition could die from covid 19. Also, those with underlying conditions include far more than the shielded group or those you might easily identify as frail or unwell. Please stop pushing this nonsense.

Second, yes, we all know the cough could have been something else...it also may not, and either way the man could also be infectious with covi 19. It quite often doesn't cause any cough but if you have it and you're coughing for any other reason, you are propelling infected droplets around.

Third, you are wrong about Hitler. He was famously unbothered by people coughing on him.

Monkeynuts18 · 04/04/2020 22:06

It’s possible - just possible - that this virus will turn out to be nowhere near as serious as feared. Some of the statistics point that way. For example, the early study from Iceland suggesting that 50% of people infected are asymptomatic; the Oxford University study that suggested 50% of the UK population could already have been infected; the fact that death rates in this country are still below the seasonal average; and the fact that in countries where very widespread testing has been implemented, the mortality rate of the virus is low.

If it does turn out to be the case - and it may not, of course - I do wonder how all the little Hitlers and witch hunters and self-appointed pandemic police will react. I think they’ll feel duped, because they’ve been getting off on the drama. I also think they’ll be the first to complain about the inevitable economic pain that occurs as a result of the anti-Covid measures. The ‘saving liiiives’ mantra will be forgotten when they’re out of work.

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 22:17

This piece come from “The Spectator” website
In announcing the most far-reaching restrictions on personal freedom in the history of our nation, Boris Johnson resolutely followed the scientific advice that he had been given. The advisers to the government seem calm and collected, with a solid consensus among them. In the face of a new viral threat, with numbers of cases surging daily, I’m not sure that any prime minister would have acted very differently.
But I’d like to raise some perspectives that have hardly been aired in the past weeks, and which point to an interpretation of the figures rather different from that which the government is acting on. I’m a recently-retired Professor of Pathology and NHS consultant pathologist, and have spent most of my adult life in healthcare and science – fields which, all too often, are characterised by doubt rather than certainty. There is room for different interpretations of the current data. If some of these other interpretations are correct, or at least nearer to the truth, then conclusions about the actions required will change correspondingly.
The simplest way to judge whether we have an exceptionally lethal disease is to look at the death rates. Are more people dying than we would expect to die anyway in a given week or month? Statistically, we would expect about 51,000 to die in Britain this month. At the time of writing, 422 deaths are linked to Covid-19 — so 0.8 per cent of that expected total. On a global basis, we’d expect 14 million to die over the first three months of the year. The world’s 18,944 coronavirus deaths represent 0.14 per cent of that total. These figures might shoot up but they are, right now, lower than other infectious diseases that we live with (such as flu). Not figures that would, in and of themselves, cause drastic global reactions.
Initial reported figures from China and Italy suggested a death rate of 5 per cent to 15 per cent, similar to Spanish flu. Given that cases were increasing exponentially, this raised the prospect of death rates that no healthcare system in the world would be able to cope with. The need to avoid this scenario is the justification for measures being implemented: the Spanish flu is believed to have infected about one in four of the world’s population between 1918 and 1920, or roughly 500 million people with 50 million deaths. We developed pandemic emergency plans, ready to snap into action in case this happened again.
At the time of writing, the UK’s 422 deaths and 8,077 known cases give an apparent death rate of 5 per cent. This is often cited as a cause for concern, contrasted with the mortality rate of seasonal flu, which is estimated at about 0.1 per cent. But we ought to look very carefully at the data. Are these figures really comparable?
Most of the UK testing has been in hospitals, where there is a high concentration of patients susceptible to the effects of any infection. As anyone who has worked with sick people will know, any testing regime that is based only in hospitals will over-estimate the virulence of an infection. Also, we’re only dealing with those Covid-19 cases that have made people sick enough or worried enough to get tested. There will be many more unaware that they have the virus, with either no symptoms, or mild ones.
Any testing regime that is based only in hospitals will overestimate the virulence of an infection
That’s why, when Britain had 590 diagnosed cases, Sir Patrick Vallance, the government’s chief scientific adviser, suggested that the real figure was probably between 5,000 and 10,000 cases, ten to 20 times higher. If he’s right, the headline death rate due to this virus is likely to be ten to 20 times lower, say 0.25 per cent to 0.5 per cent. That puts the Covid-19 mortality rate in the range associated with infections like flu.
But there’s another, potentially even more serious problem: the way that deaths are recorded. If someone dies of a respiratory infection in the UK, the specific cause of the infection is not usually recorded, unless the illness is a rare ‘notifiable disease’. So the vast majority of respiratory deaths in the UK are recorded as bronchopneumonia, pneumonia, old age or a similar designation. We don’t really test for flu, or other seasonal infections. If the patient has, say, cancer, motor neurone disease or another serious disease, this will be recorded as the cause of death, even if the final illness was a respiratory infection. This means UK certifications normally under-record deaths due to respiratory infections.
Now look at what has happened since the emergence of Covid-19. The list of notifiable diseases has been updated. This list — as well as containing smallpox (which has been extinct for many years) and conditions such as anthrax, brucellosis, plague and rabies (which most UK doctors will never see in their entire careers) — has now been amended to include Covid-19. But not flu. That means every positive test for Covid-19 must be notified, in a way that it just would not be for flu or most other infections.
In the current climate, anyone with a positive test for Covid-19 will certainly be known to clinical staff looking after them: if any of these patients dies, staff will have to record the Covid-19 designation on the death certificate — contrary to usual practice for most infections of this kind. There is a big difference between Covid-19 causing death, and Covid-19 being found in someone who died of other causes. Making Covid-19 notifiable might give the appearance of it causing increasing numbers of deaths, whether this is true or not. It might appear far more of a killer than flu, simply because of the way deaths are recorded.
If we take drastic measures to reduce the incidence of Covid-19, it follows that the deaths will also go down. We risk being convinced that we have averted something that was never really going to be as severe as we feared. This unusual way of reporting Covid-19 deaths explains the clear finding that most of its victims have underlying conditions — and would normally be susceptible to other seasonal viruses, which are virtually never recorded as a specific cause of death.
Let us also consider the Covid-19 graphs, showing an exponential rise in cases — and deaths. They can look alarming. But if we tracked flu or other seasonal viruses in the same way, we would also see an exponential increase. We would also see some countries behind others, and striking fatality rates. The United States Centers for Disease Control, for example, publishes weekly estimates of flu cases. The latest figures show that since September, flu has infected 38 million Americans, hospitalised 390,000 and killed 23,000. This does not cause public alarm because flu is familiar.
The data on Covid-19 differs wildly from country to country. Look at the figures for Italy and Germany. At the time of writing, Italy has 69,176 recorded cases and 6,820 deaths, a rate of 9.9 per cent. Germany has 32,986 cases and 157 deaths, a rate of 0.5 per cent. Do we think that the strain of virus is so different in these nearby countries as to virtually represent different diseases? Or that the populations are so different in their susceptibility to the virus that the death rate can vary more than twentyfold? If not, we ought to suspect systematic error, that the Covid-19 data we are seeing from different countries is not directly comparable.
Look at other rates: Spain 7.1 per cent, US 1.3 per cent, Switzerland 1.3 per cent, France 4.3 per cent, South Korea 1.3 per cent, Iran 7.8 per cent. We may very well be comparing apples with oranges. Recording cases where there was a positive test for the virus is a very different thing to recording the virus as the main cause of death.
Early evidence from Iceland, a country with a very strong organisation for wide testing within the population, suggests that as many as 50 per cent of infections are almost completely asymptomatic. Most of the rest are relatively minor. In fact, Iceland’s figures, 648 cases and two attributed deaths, give a death rate of 0.3 per cent. As population testing becomes more widespread elsewhere in the world, we will find a greater and greater proportion of cases where infections have already occurred and caused only mild effects. In fact, as time goes on, this will become generally truer too, because most infections tend to decrease in virulence as an epidemic progresses.
One pretty clear indicator is death. If a new infection is causing many extra people to die (as opposed to an infection present in people who would have died anyway) then it will cause an increase in the overall death rate. But we have yet to see any statistical evidence for excess deaths, in any part of the world.
Covid-19 can clearly cause serious respiratory tract compromise in some patients, especially those with chest issues, and in smokers. The elderly are probably more at risk, as they are for infections of any kind. The average age of those dying in Italy is 78.5 years, with almost nine in ten fatalities among the over-70s. The life expectancy in Italy — that is, the number of years you can expect to live to from birth, all things being equal — is 82.5 years. But all things are not equal when a new seasonal virus goes around.
It certainly seems reasonable, now, that a degree of social distancing should be maintained for a while, especially for the elderly and the immune-suppressed. But when drastic measures are introduced, they should be based on clear evidence. In the case of Covid-19, the evidence is not clear. The UK’s lockdown has been informed by modelling of what might happen. More needs to be known about these models. Do they correct for age, pre-existing conditions, changing virulence, the effects of death certification and other factors? Tweak any of these assumptions and the outcome (and predicted death toll) can change radically.
Much of the response to Covid-19 seems explained by the fact that we are watching this virus in a way that no virus has been watched before. The scenes from the Italian hospitals have been shocking, and make for grim television. But television is not science.
Clearly, the various lockdowns will slow the spread of Covid-19 so there will be fewer cases. When we relax the measures, there will be more cases again. But this need not be a reason to keep the lockdown: the spread of cases is only something to fear if we are dealing with an unusually lethal virus. That’s why the way we record data will be hugely important. Unless we tighten criteria for recording death due only to the virus (as opposed to it being present in those who died from other conditions), the official figures may show a lot more deaths apparently caused by the virus than is actually the case. What then? How do we measure the health consequences of taking people’s lives, jobs, leisure and purpose away from them to protect them from an anticipated threat? Which causes least harm?
The moral debate is not lives vs money. It is lives vs lives. It will take months, perhaps years, if ever, before we can assess the wider implications of what we are doing. The damage to children’s education, the excess suicides, the increase in mental health problems, the taking away of resources from other health problems that we were dealing with effectively. Those who need medical help now but won’t seek it, or might not be offered it. And what about the effects on food production and global commerce, that will have unquantifiable consequences for people of all ages, perhaps especially in developing economies?
Governments everywhere say they are responding to the science. The policies in the UK are not the government’s fault. They are trying to act responsibly based on the scientific advice given. But governments must remember that rushed science is almost always bad science. We have decided on policies of extraordinary magnitude without concrete evidence of excess harm already occurring, and without proper scrutiny of the science used to justify them.
In the next few days and weeks, we must continue to look critically and dispassionately at the Covid-19 evidence as it comes in. Above all else, we must keep an open mind — and look for what is, not for what we fear might be.
John Lee is a recently retired professor of pathology and a former NHS consultant pathologist.
WRITTEN BYDr John Lee

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 22:34

Lets also not forget is is a Coronavirus just like MERS and SARS the RS at the end of each of these stands for Respiratory System. and that is why they kill mainly old, very young and those already compromised, yet every time you hear about someone young and supposedly healthy dieing after catching Covid 19, there always seems to be that little piece tucked away in the corner somewhere, the family were unawares of the underlying health condition. explain that one to me? @Inkpaperstars because I have not yet read anywhere of one very perfectly health person between mid teens and late 50'S that has died due to the virus itself. and as you see from the piece i post there from an NHS Pathologist(Consultant at that) how these figures do not stack up. and it is was that deadly then we all and I mean all would be under curfew and everyone would be tested. Which I personal think should happen, That may stop some person giving it to me and killing me cos as stated several times I an one of the 1.2 million at high risk and apparently I should have been shielding but I like many other people in my position got missed in the first run of letters and had to register, but in the mean time still had to run the gauntlet and go out to get food. but then i am not paranoid or a little Hitler or a witch hunter, I live a quite life now the soulmate is gone and keep myself generally to myself.

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 22:50

This is one of my favorite line from his report
In the next few days and weeks, we must continue to look critically and dispassionately at the Covid-19 evidence as it comes in. Above all else, we must keep an open mind — and look for what is, not for what we fear might be.
the most important word here is fear

Inkpaperstars · 04/04/2020 22:51

Well, it is interesting to note the pathologist's viewpoint, thank you for sharing that article. However he is a pathologist so epidemics are not his speciality, nor is he on the frontline now. I do take his points on board. At the same time, I have heard numerous interviews with ICU consultants saying that people with no underlying conditions are dying from covid 19.

I am sorry to hear you had to go out for food despite being in the shielded group @peterlon1. That is very stressful. I hope you manage to get some supplies delivered from now on. If you can't get any supermarket slots do try local smaller shops as many are delivering, or local mutual aid groups and/or the council.

Walkaround · 04/04/2020 23:04

Well, the evidence is that there are far more people being admitted to hospital with respiratory infections all at the same time than normal, and that this is a massive problem for our health service, regardless of whether you record that as the cause of their death, or “being over the age of 78.” It is worth pointing out that if this virus were not causing large numbers of people to be admitted to hospital with unusual respiratory symptoms, the Chinese would have got away with pretending it wasn’t happening.

Walkaround · 04/04/2020 23:10

And what about the two nurses in their 30s who died in the last couple of days? Nobody said they had underlying health conditions. So maybe you need to move your goalposts and start talking about viral load.

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 23:24

no they didn't but as the pathologist says that because they tested positive for the virus that is what the put on the death certificate regardless. and with SARS there were nurses dieing in Canada which had one of the biggest outbreaks, problem with MERS and SARS is they stayed very active in the body apparently for some time after death, so again no post mortem was done. but they do know that people with high blood pressure are susceptible to the virus and it is a well known fact there are many people walking around with Hypertension without knowing it, Diabetes is the same. I am not advocating it isn't responsible for the deaths, but we will never know the real reason because they do not do a post mortem. my point is it like MERS and SARS is a catalyst, i wish i could find the Canadian doctors report again as he put it in a very good way. Generally most of the population should have no serious ill effects from it as with MERS and SARS. Finland are so more ahead than most of us due to their testing practices. The disaster Model on Pandemics we are following is 100 years old, it wasn't even updated with MERS or SARS, we live in the 21st century we should be dealing better with this than causing wide spread panic and paranoia.

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 23:29

what annoy me even more is the Chinese government closed down the illegal market and banned the sale and eating of , dog, cat, bat, snake and Pangolin, I mean come on something with all those scales is not mean to be eaten by humans, I don't think it has a predator in the wild. but the market is back open and running and selling the same stuff. So now they have given us MERS, SARS and Covid-19, what the hell is the next one going to do?

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 23:39

Please also note he says that rushed science is bad science and i have to agree with him, if you rush anything you do not get the best results. and perhaps if instead of just putting Covid-19 on a death certificate do a post mortem, we all know that pathologists are at best medical detectives, with just passing it off as the virus are we not missing something are we not overlooking finding the real reason people die from it? A heart surgeon I worked with once told me that the best medical breakthroughs often come from the findings of a pathologist. We often find out more from a dead body than from a live one, mainly because we can take tissue samples we cannot take from the living.

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 23:54

the other big issue for most people is the conflicting information as to what you can or can't catch it off how long it stays on things, one lady was saying the other day it remains on something for 9 days, well to rest your minds on that one I will add another post. and the biggest point to take from this one is wash your hands

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 23:56

March 26, 2020 at 12:10 p.m. GMT
PLEASE NOTE
The Washington Post is providing this story for free so that all readers have access to this important information about the coronavirus. For more free stories, sign up for our daily Coronavirus Updates newsletter.
Joseph G. Allen is an assistant professor of exposure and assessment science and director of the Healthy Buildings Program at Harvard University’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health.
A recent study in the New England Journal of Medicine is making people think twice about how they might be exposed to covid-19 if they open a box delivered by UPS, touch packages at the grocery store or accept food delivery.
The risk is low. Let me explain.
First, disease transmission from inanimate surfaces is real, so I don’t want to minimize that. It’s something we have known for a long time; as early as the 1500s, infected surfaces were thought of as “seeds of disease,” able to transfer disease from one person to another.
In that new NEJM study, here’s the finding that is grabbing headlines: The coronavirus that causes covid-19 “was detectable . . . up to four hours on copper, up to 24 hours on cardboard and up to two to three days on plastic and stainless steel.”
The key word here is “detectable.”
Yes, the virus can be detected on some surfaces for up to a day, but the reality is that the levels drop off quickly. For example, the article shows that the virus’s half-life on stainless steel and plastic was 5.6 hours and 6.8 hours, respectively. (Half-life is how long it takes the viral concentration to decrease by half, then half of that half, and so on until it’s gone.)
Now, let’s examine the full causal chain that would have to exist for you to get sick from a contaminated Amazon package at your door or a gallon of milk from the grocery store.
In the case of the Amazon package, the driver would have to be infected and still working despite limited symptoms. (If they were very ill, they would most likely be home; if they had no symptoms, it’s unlikely they would be coughing or sneezing frequently.) Let’s say they wipe their nose, don’t wash their hands and then transfer some virus to your package.
Even then, there would be a time lag from when they transferred the virus until you picked up the package at your door, with the virus degrading all the while. In the worst-case scenario, a visibly sick driver picks up your package from the truck, walks to your front door and sneezes into their hands or directly on the package immediately before handing it to you.
Even in that highly unlikely scenario, you can break this causal chain.
In the epidemiological world, we have a helpful way to think about it: the “Sufficient-Component Cause model.” Think of this model as pieces of a pie. For disease to happen, all of the pieces of the pie have to be there: sick driver, sneezing/coughing, viral particles transferred to the package, a very short time lapse before delivery, you touching the exact same spot on the package as the sneeze, you then touching your face or mouth before hand-washing.
In this model, the virus on the package is a necessary component, but it alone is not sufficient to get you sick. Many other pieces of the pie would have to be in place.
So this is what you can do to disassemble the pie — to cut the chain.
You can leave that cardboard package at your door for a few hours — or bring it inside and leave it right inside your door, then wash your hands again. If you’re still concerned there was any virus on the package, you could wipe down the exterior with a disinfectant, or open it outdoors and put the packaging in the recycling can. (Then wash your hands again.)
What about going to the grocery store? The same approach applies.
Shop when you need to (keeping six feet from other customers) and load items into your cart or basket. Keep your hands away from your face while shopping, and wash them as soon as you’re home. Put away your groceries, and then wash your hands again. If you wait even a few hours before using anything you just purchased, most of the virus that was on any package will be significantly reduced. If you need to use something immediately, and want to take extra precautions, wipe the package down with a disinfectant. Last, wash all fruits and vegetables as you normally would.
We should all be grateful for those who continue to work in food production, distribution and sales, and for all those delivery drivers. They’re keeping us all safer by allowing us to stay home. And, as I said, the risk of disease transmission from surfaces is real. We can never eliminate all risk; the goal is to minimize it — because we all will occasionally need to go grocery shopping and receive supplies in the mail.
But if you take basic precautions, including washing your hands frequently, the danger from accepting a package from a delivery driver or from takeout from a local restaurant or from buying groceries is de minimis. That’s a scientific way of saying, “The risks are small, and manageable.”

Enough4me · 05/04/2020 00:04

Witch hunters looked for people to blame at a time when people did not really understand anatomy and medicine and took on a mob mentality. Hitler was obsessed with a supreme order and elimination of those he thought were weaker.

Neither of these labels fit the people who are following distancing advice, not openly coughing over other people and just want others to extend the same courtesy to save lives.

The message is clear, imagine that you do have it and adjust your behaviour to consider those around you. My cough has been really bad today, and even though I am past 14 days of initial symptoms I exercised to YouTube rather than went out as I do not know that I am not shedding it.

peterlon1 · 05/04/2020 00:11

I'll leave you with that one as I have med to take and they usually put me to sleep pretty quickly. but all along my whole issue with it is it has turned people against each other society cannot survive like this, as Dr Lee states, it is times like these that they see a rise in suicide and a rise in mental health issues. and how much damage is being done and how long is it going on for, i for one cannot stay cooped up in my house 24/7/365, i have family I like to interact with, but with us all being high risk we cannot go out. I don't agree with how the government handled it or how the Chinese kept it secret for months, and that is another point, it has been around since last year, so how many people were infected before Christmas even, and were some of the usual several thousand deaths from flu attributed to this strain? the problem is we don't know, the same as we don't know that people may have been infected with it for some time but due to cold weather it didn't manifest itself earlier, and it is only since the weather became warmer that the virus began to be more visible, after all we know that viruses need warmth to perpetuate and flourish. There are so many variables we do not know and are not aware of, I am just a pragmatist i try to see the full picture and the possible variables. I hope I have given you cause for thought and to not blindly accept what we are being told, in my eye there is an underlying sense of control!!! NN

WaxOnFeckOff · 05/04/2020 00:12

Neither of these labels fit the people who are following distancing advice, not openly coughing over other people and just want others to extend the same courtesy to save lives.

Which is nothing to do with the previous paragraph. This isn't about what people with or without the virus do, it's about the mentality of thinking that it's your job to decide whether someone is or isn't following what you interpret the rule to be and either reporting them or confronting them about it. Watching out to see who has been out twice or who had parcels delivered that could be non-essential items, who has an easter egg in their trolly etc etc etc.

WaxOnFeckOff · 05/04/2020 00:14

If the government or the police want the general public to help them police the rules they will ask for that and issue a method for collating reports.

They haven't so I think we can crack on with doing our own bit and ensuring that what we do in own own family units follows the rules.

Enough4me · 05/04/2020 00:42

The police have online 'report a breach of Covid 19 restrictions' systems set-up. I will assume not for people coughing over food, but for large organised events or similar.

People not following the rules may mean tighter restrictions for us all and that isn't fair, the minority not being considerate will impact on the majority who are.

TealWater · 05/04/2020 06:56

You were definitely not being unreasonable. You gave him a chance to say why he was coughing. If there was underlying reason e.g like my mother who has COPD and has an extremely loud and often very chesty moist cough, then he would have said I have COPD/Asthma/Bronchitis etc and it is a regular cough. That, would have set your mind at ease, right? But the fact that he himself said nothing and just waved it away would worry anyone. If it is a person with a regular cough, surely they would be aware of themselves and endeavour to set people's minds at ease if they catch people looking at them. The fact he shrugged it away is more than enough to justify what you said. And, I note that he mentioned going to the Drs and not having it, FIRST. You didn't, he did. Which exonerates you asking if he had specifically been tested for it.

Carbosug · 05/04/2020 07:48

@tonyaster I'm talking about the man in the op, who many posters are defending on the grounds that he probably doesn't have Covid 19. Whether he does or he doesn't his behaviour was rude and unhygienic and at a time when people are coping with a world pandemic where coughing is one of the symptoms of course he's going to attract negative attention and comments.

Walkaround · 05/04/2020 08:00

peterlon1 - I repeat, we do know that the effect of this virus if uncontrolled is to overwhelm hospitals with patients exhibiting the same symptoms. This then prevents people with other illnesses getting proper treatment, which also results in death - caused by the effects of covid 19 but not recorded as such. It is not really helpful to argue at this precise point in time that if you looked hard enough, you’d find every apparently healthy person who died with covid 19 happened to have an underlying health condition - given, as you point out, the fact that a colossal number of people have high blood pressure, are obese, happen to be over the age of 65, are unfit, have asthma (this country has one of the highest rates of this in the entire world), have diabetes, have heart disease, etc, etc. The only thing relevant at this precise moment in time is that telling people to wash their hands has not been sufficient to stop rapidly increasing numbers of people from being admitted to hospital with respiratory symptoms.

As for warmth and viruses flourishing, I think you’ll find that, actually, the half life of a virus is far longer if it is cold, and ultra violet light breaks viruses down, so your comment about the virus being more visible when it got warmer makes no sense - the hope is the opposite.

With respect to paranoia about packaging, I agree sone people go overboard on that one. But then sone people have set fire to mobile phone masts because they think the virus is spread via 5G networks... What is without any doubt whatsoever though is that this virus can be spread to others by coughing and sneezing near them - and that cough and sneeze particles actually do spread further than 2m at a time, and that there is ample evidence from countries that have direct experience with SARS1 and MERS (neither of which are remotely nearly as contagious as this coronavirus) that wearing a face mask when coughing helps to protect others.

HoppingPavlova · 05/04/2020 13:10

Restrictions have been lifted on most things now anyway. Supermarkets have caught up.

Maybe for you but not us and we are also location dependant. Different states seem to be doing it differently and there also appear to be differences across regions. We still have strict rationing in place as of today. So, still laughing at all the talk of using tissues etc, god knows when these will return. It doesn’t matter that they are rationed to one, if there are none you can’t take your allocation of one! Not as though you can use toilet paper or kitchen paper either. No one these days has handkerchiefs lying around and they are pure filth anyway so short of dragging a tea towel around to use in case of an existing cough????

Enough4me · 05/04/2020 14:31

Or just stay at home and his partner shops alone. It isn't hard to use common sense.

bruffin · 05/04/2020 14:36

Or just stay at home and his partner shops alone. It isn't hard to use common sense
Commonsense says you dont know their circumstances.

Enough4me · 05/04/2020 15:04

Like the sunbathers being reminded that this is a matter of life or death.

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