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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Man with persistent cough shopping with partner - just why?!?

636 replies

Defenbaker · 02/04/2020 23:17

I went shopping today, for essential items, to a large supermarket. There was a small queue, with a security guard letting people enter as others left, to ensure social distancing inside. All very calm and not many people inside, so that was good.

However, in the second aisle there was a man coughing. I thought, oh well, it's probably nothing, just an ordinary cough, don't panic. I avoided him anyway, just in case. However, he then kept on coughing, at regular intervals, all around the shop. He never once used a tissue, or even his hand or the crook of his arm to catch the cough, and the cough was just the sort of dry, persistent cough that medics have described as a symptom! Regardless of whether he had the Covid19 virus or not, he was certainly not being careful to keep his germs to himself. I wondered how many people he could be infecting.

Although I tried my best to avoid him, he then appeared quite near me, where I was using the self scan till. This conversation took place:

Me: "It might be a good idea if you wait outside while your partner does the shopping, as you have a cough."

(He looked stunned, as though the idea hadn't occurred to him.)
Him: "Oh, it's just a cough, I don't have a temperature!"

Me: "That's a symptom, you might have it, you don't know."
Him: "I've been to the doctor... I don't have it."

Me: "So, have you had the test then? Did you have a negative result?"
Him: "The doctor said I'm fine... " (He looked shifty, like he was tempted to lie but found it difficult while I fixed my gaze on him.)
Me: "Even if you haven't got it, people are bound to be anxious when you're coughing all over the store. It really would be best if you wait outside."
Him: "Mmm... maybe... "

All the time his partner said nothing. I got the impression she was a bit embarassed to be with him, as she knew how others would view his germ ridden presence.

He then sloped off. AIBU to think that he had no reason to accompany another (able bodied) adult around the shop, and should have known better than to behave so thoughtlessly during this health crisis?

OP posts:
inflam · 04/04/2020 07:51

If his reply was he had lung cancer he'd be even more stupid as he should be at home as he would be particularly at risk

I don't think you can judge that as 'stupid' - it's personal choice and there are many reasons why someone with lung cancer may choose to go out.

inflam · 04/04/2020 07:53

I’m really surprised by the beginning of this thread, if more people challenged those who are (potentially in this case) putting the rest of us in danger by being twats and thinking the rules don’t apply to them,

We don't actually know he was a 'twat' who thinks the rules don't apply to him though, so we? All we know is that a man with a cough was in a supermarket. We don't know if it was a new continuous cough, or one he had for 20 years.

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 08:30

read this information and feel safer.
By Joseph G. Allen
March 26, 2020 at 12:10 p.m. GMT
PLEASE NOTE
The Washington Post is providing this story for free so that all readers have access to this important information about the coronavirus. For more free stories, sign up for our daily Coronavirus Updates newsletter.
Joseph G. Allen is an assistant professor of exposure and assessment science and director of the Healthy Buildings Program at Harvard University’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health.
A recent study in the New England Journal of Medicine is making people think twice about how they might be exposed to covid-19 if they open a box delivered by UPS, touch packages at the grocery store or accept food delivery.
The risk is low. Let me explain.
First, disease transmission from inanimate surfaces is real, so I don’t want to minimize that. It’s something we have known for a long time; as early as the 1500s, infected surfaces were thought of as “seeds of disease,” able to transfer disease from one person to another.
In that new NEJM study, here’s the finding that is grabbing headlines: The coronavirus that causes covid-19 “was detectable . . . up to four hours on copper, up to 24 hours on cardboard and up to two to three days on plastic and stainless steel.
”The key word here is “detectable.”
Yes, the virus can be detected on some surfaces for up to a day, but the reality is that the levels drop off quickly. For example, the article shows that the virus’s half-life on stainless steel and plastic was 5.6 hours and 6.8 hours, respectively. (Half-life is how long it takes the viral concentration to decrease by half, then half of that half, and so on until it’s gone.)
Now, let’s examine the full causal chain that would have to exist for you to get sick from a contaminated Amazon package at your door or a gallon of milk from the grocery store.
In the case of the Amazon package, the driver would have to be infected and still working despite limited symptoms. (If they were very ill, they would most likely be home; if they had no symptoms, it’s unlikely they would be coughing or sneezing frequently.) Let’s say they wipe their nose, don’t wash their hands and then transfer some virus to your package. Even then, there would be a time lag from when they transferred the virus until you picked up the package at your door, with the virus degrading all the while. In the worst-case scenario, a visibly sick driver picks up your package from the truck, walks to your front door and sneezes into their hands or directly on the package immediately before handing it to you.
Even in that highly unlikely scenario, you can break this causal chain.
In the epidemiological world, we have a helpful way to think about it: the “Sufficient-Component Cause model.” Think of this model as pieces of a pie. For disease to happen, all of the pieces of the pie have to be there: sick driver, sneezing/coughing, viral particles transferred to the package, a very short time lapse before delivery, you touching the exact same spot on the package as the sneeze, you then touching your face or mouth before hand-washing.
In this model, the virus on the package is a necessary component, but it alone is not sufficient to get you sick. Many other pieces of the pie would have to be in place.
So this is what you can do to disassemble the pie — to cut the chain.
You can leave that cardboard package at your door for a few hours — or bring it inside and leave it right inside your door, then wash your hands again. If you’re still concerned there was any virus on the package, you could wipe down the exterior with a disinfectant, or open it outdoors and put the packaging in the recycling can. (Then wash your hands again.)
What about going to the grocery store? The same approach applies.
Shop when you need to (keeping six feet from other customers) and load items into your cart or basket. Keep your hands away from your face while shopping, and wash them as soon as you’re home. Put away your groceries, and then wash your hands again. If you wait even a few hours before using anything you just purchased, most of the virus that was on any package will be significantly reduced. If you need to use something immediately, and want to take extra precautions, wipe the package down with a disinfectant. Last, wash all fruits and vegetables as you normally would.
We should all be grateful for those who continue to work in food production, distribution and sales, and for all those delivery drivers. They’re keeping us all safer by allowing us to stay home. And, as I said, the risk of disease transmission from surfaces is real. We can never eliminate all risk; the goal is to minimize it — because we all will occasionally need to go grocery shopping and receive supplies in the mail.
But if you take basic precautions, including washing your hands frequently, the danger from accepting a package from a delivery driver or from takeout from a local restaurant or from buying groceries is de minimis. That’s a scientific way of saying, “The risks are small, and manageable.”

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 08:33

and also this piece.
This piece come from “The Spectator” website
In announcing the most far-reaching restrictions on personal freedom in the history of our nation, Boris Johnson resolutely followed the scientific advice that he had been given. The advisers to the government seem calm and collected, with a solid consensus among them. In the face of a new viral threat, with numbers of cases surging daily, I’m not sure that any prime minister would have acted very differently.
But I’d like to raise some perspectives that have hardly been aired in the past weeks, and which point to an interpretation of the figures rather different from that which the government is acting on. I’m a recently-retired Professor of Pathology and NHS consultant pathologist, and have spent most of my adult life in healthcare and science – fields which, all too often, are characterised by doubt rather than certainty. There is room for different interpretations of the current data. If some of these other interpretations are correct, or at least nearer to the truth, then conclusions about the actions required will change correspondingly.
The simplest way to judge whether we have an exceptionally lethal disease is to look at the death rates. Are more people dying than we would expect to die anyway in a given week or month? Statistically, we would expect about 51,000 to die in Britain this month. At the time of writing, 422 deaths are linked to Covid-19 — so 0.8 per cent of that expected total. On a global basis, we’d expect 14 million to die over the first three months of the year. The world’s 18,944 coronavirus deaths represent 0.14 per cent of that total. These figures might shoot up but they are, right now, lower than other infectious diseases that we live with (such as flu). Not figures that would, in and of themselves, cause drastic global reactions.
Initial reported figures from China and Italy suggested a death rate of 5 per cent to 15 per cent, similar to Spanish flu. Given that cases were increasing exponentially, this raised the prospect of death rates that no healthcare system in the world would be able to cope with. The need to avoid this scenario is the justification for measures being implemented: the Spanish flu is believed to have infected about one in four of the world’s population between 1918 and 1920, or roughly 500 million people with 50 million deaths. We developed pandemic emergency plans, ready to snap into action in case this happened again.
At the time of writing, the UK’s 422 deaths and 8,077 known cases give an apparent death rate of 5 per cent. This is often cited as a cause for concern, contrasted with the mortality rate of seasonal flu, which is estimated at about 0.1 per cent. But we ought to look very carefully at the data. Are these figures really comparable?
Most of the UK testing has been in hospitals, where there is a high concentration of patients susceptible to the effects of any infection. As anyone who has worked with sick people will know, any testing regime that is based only in hospitals will over-estimate the virulence of an infection. Also, we’re only dealing with those Covid-19 cases that have made people sick enough or worried enough to get tested. There will be many more unaware that they have the virus, with either no symptoms, or mild ones.
Any testing regime that is based only in hospitals will overestimate the virulence of an infection
That’s why, when Britain had 590 diagnosed cases, Sir Patrick Vallance, the government’s chief scientific adviser, suggested that the real figure was probably between 5,000 and 10,000 cases, ten to 20 times higher. If he’s right, the headline death rate due to this virus is likely to be ten to 20 times lower, say 0.25 per cent to 0.5 per cent. That puts the Covid-19 mortality rate in the range associated with infections like flu.
But there’s another, potentially even more serious problem: the way that deaths are recorded. If someone dies of a respiratory infection in the UK, the specific cause of the infection is not usually recorded, unless the illness is a rare ‘notifiable disease’. So the vast majority of respiratory deaths in the UK are recorded as bronchopneumonia, pneumonia, old age or a similar designation. We don’t really test for flu, or other seasonal infections. If the patient has, say, cancer, motor neurone disease or another serious disease, this will be recorded as the cause of death, even if the final illness was a respiratory infection. This means UK certifications normally under-record deaths due to respiratory infections.
Now look at what has happened since the emergence of Covid-19. The list of notifiable diseases has been updated. This list — as well as containing smallpox (which has been extinct for many years) and conditions such as anthrax, brucellosis, plague and rabies (which most UK doctors will never see in their entire careers) — has now been amended to include Covid-19. But not flu. That means every positive test for Covid-19 must be notified, in a way that it just would not be for flu or most other infections.
In the current climate, anyone with a positive test for Covid-19 will certainly be known to clinical staff looking after them: if any of these patients dies, staff will have to record the Covid-19 designation on the death certificate — contrary to usual practice for most infections of this kind. There is a big difference between Covid-19 causing death, and Covid-19 being found in someone who died of other causes. Making Covid-19 notifiable might give the appearance of it causing increasing numbers of deaths, whether this is true or not. It might appear far more of a killer than flu, simply because of the way deaths are recorded.
If we take drastic measures to reduce the incidence of Covid-19, it follows that the deaths will also go down. We risk being convinced that we have averted something that was never really going to be as severe as we feared. This unusual way of reporting Covid-19 deaths explains the clear finding that most of its victims have underlying conditions — and would normally be susceptible to other seasonal viruses, which are virtually never recorded as a specific cause of death.
Let us also consider the Covid-19 graphs, showing an exponential rise in cases — and deaths. They can look alarming. But if we tracked flu or other seasonal viruses in the same way, we would also see an exponential increase. We would also see some countries behind others, and striking fatality rates. The United States Centers for Disease Control, for example, publishes weekly estimates of flu cases. The latest figures show that since September, flu has infected 38 million Americans, hospitalised 390,000 and killed 23,000. This does not cause public alarm because flu is familiar.
The data on Covid-19 differs wildly from country to country. Look at the figures for Italy and Germany. At the time of writing, Italy has 69,176 recorded cases and 6,820 deaths, a rate of 9.9 per cent. Germany has 32,986 cases and 157 deaths, a rate of 0.5 per cent. Do we think that the strain of virus is so different in these nearby countries as to virtually represent different diseases? Or that the populations are so different in their susceptibility to the virus that the death rate can vary more than twentyfold? If not, we ought to suspect systematic error, that the Covid-19 data we are seeing from different countries is not directly comparable.
Look at other rates: Spain 7.1 per cent, US 1.3 per cent, Switzerland 1.3 per cent, France 4.3 per cent, South Korea 1.3 per cent, Iran 7.8 per cent. We may very well be comparing apples with oranges. Recording cases where there was a positive test for the virus is a very different thing to recording the virus as the main cause of death.
Early evidence from Iceland, a country with a very strong organisation for wide testing within the population, suggests that as many as 50 per cent of infections are almost completely asymptomatic. Most of the rest are relatively minor. In fact, Iceland’s figures, 648 cases and two attributed deaths, give a death rate of 0.3 per cent. As population testing becomes more widespread elsewhere in the world, we will find a greater and greater proportion of cases where infections have already occurred and caused only mild effects. In fact, as time goes on, this will become generally truer too, because most infections tend to decrease in virulence as an epidemic progresses.
One pretty clear indicator is death. If a new infection is causing many extra people to die (as opposed to an infection present in people who would have died anyway) then it will cause an increase in the overall death rate. But we have yet to see any statistical evidence for excess deaths, in any part of the world.
Covid-19 can clearly cause serious respiratory tract compromise in some patients, especially those with chest issues, and in smokers. The elderly are probably more at risk, as they are for infections of any kind. The average age of those dying in Italy is 78.5 years, with almost nine in ten fatalities among the over-70s. The life expectancy in Italy — that is, the number of years you can expect to live to from birth, all things being equal — is 82.5 years. But all things are not equal when a new seasonal virus goes around.
It certainly seems reasonable, now, that a degree of social distancing should be maintained for a while, especially for the elderly and the immune-suppressed. But when drastic measures are introduced, they should be based on clear evidence. In the case of Covid-19, the evidence is not clear. The UK’s lockdown has been informed by modelling of what might happen. More needs to be known about these models. Do they correct for age, pre-existing conditions, changing virulence, the effects of death certification and other factors? Tweak any of these assumptions and the outcome (and predicted death toll) can change radically.
Much of the response to Covid-19 seems explained by the fact that we are watching this virus in a way that no virus has been watched before. The scenes from the Italian hospitals have been shocking, and make for grim television. But television is not science.
Clearly, the various lockdowns will slow the spread of Covid-19 so there will be fewer cases. When we relax the measures, there will be more cases again. But this need not be a reason to keep the lockdown: the spread of cases is only something to fear if we are dealing with an unusually lethal virus. That’s why the way we record data will be hugely important. Unless we tighten criteria for recording death due only to the virus (as opposed to it being present in those who died from other conditions), the official figures may show a lot more deaths apparently caused by the virus than is actually the case. What then? How do we measure the health consequences of taking people’s lives, jobs, leisure and purpose away from them to protect them from an anticipated threat? Which causes least harm?
The moral debate is not lives vs money. It is lives vs lives. It will take months, perhaps years, if ever, before we can assess the wider implications of what we are doing. The damage to children’s education, the excess suicides, the increase in mental health problems, the taking away of resources from other health problems that we were dealing with effectively. Those who need medical help now but won’t seek it, or might not be offered it. And what about the effects on food production and global commerce, that will have unquantifiable consequences for people of all ages, perhaps especially in developing economies?
Governments everywhere say they are responding to the science. The policies in the UK are not the government’s fault. They are trying to act responsibly based on the scientific advice given. But governments must remember that rushed science is almost always bad science. We have decided on policies of extraordinary magnitude without concrete evidence of excess harm already occurring, and without proper scrutiny of the science used to justify them.
In the next few days and weeks, we must continue to look critically and dispassionately at the Covid-19 evidence as it comes in. Above all else, we must keep an open mind — and look for what is, not for what we fear might be.
John Lee is a recently retired professor of pathology and a former NHS consultant pathologist.
WRITTEN BYDr John Lee

TheVanguardSix · 04/04/2020 08:34

I don't go out to shop. But I do run over to the corner shop once every week for milk and rice (I can never get rice online).
I have a persistent cough from the ACE inhibitor I have to take. It's a side effect. It's not a bad one, but I am very aware that my dry cough would scare people. Honestly, I think it's the fear of people's reaction to the cough that has me going out once a day (at night) to walk the dog now. I know it's such a worry when you hear a cough.

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 08:42

@TheVanguardSix how awful for you, and you should not feel ashamed or embarrassed about your cough. it's other peoples issues not yours they need to get over it and be real.

hardboiledeggs · 04/04/2020 09:00

I have a stomach condition that flares up when I'm anxious,which I've been a lot lately. This causes me to cough to relieve the pressure of the acid building. Some people can cough for other reasons.

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 09:01

Until today if I have needed food had to go out no option despite high risk and disabled, because the supermarket i have shopped with for years knows I am disabled and use online shopping will not allow me until they get details from Government, so my biggest issue was that by time I have stood in cold to get into the supermarket(I use crutches when out or fall over) then trying to get round, pushing a trolley whilst balancing on crutches, causes me massive amounts of pain, then trying to talk to cashier through gritted teeth because of the pain! I get accused of being aggressive, I just cannot win.

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 09:04

@hardboiledeggs oh poor you I have a 3 stomach/intestinal issues mainly caused by nasty strong meds, fortunately they don't make me cough, usually just double over in pain, I sympathise with you.

emilybrontescorsett · 04/04/2020 09:16

I can't believe some of you think it's perfectly fine to go into a public space and cough constantly without covering your mouth.
There are some scruffy screbs about.
This is never ok.
If you do this or live with someone who does this you /they are a scrubber.

inflam · 04/04/2020 09:23

I can't believe some of you think it's perfectly fine to go into a public space and cough constantly without covering your mouth.

Not a single person on this thread has said they think that is ok.

If you do this or live with someone who does this you /they are a scrubber.

Erm, ok

inflam · 04/04/2020 09:24

Honestly, I think it's the fear of people's reaction to the cough that has me going out once a day (at night) to walk the dog now. I know it's such a worry when you hear a cough.

I'm sorry you have been made to feel like this by stupid people.

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 09:34

Hi @inflam good morning hope you slept well, yes i agree with you totally.

and @emilybrontescorsett coughing is ok as long as you cover it up, it's the people that just cough all over the place uncovered that is not right.

SudokuQueen · 04/04/2020 09:36

I only read the first page, but I can see exactly why we've managed to spread this like wildfire around the country.

'I've got a cough because I have asthma'
'it's emphysema'
'it's normal for me'

Right... And you know exactly what germs are in your body at all times do you?

So, what if you've caught covid, you keep coughing as normal, thinking its normal, and decided to go out, cough everywhere, not use a tissue or your hand/elbow. You spread the disease everywhere in doing so. A day or so later, you come down properly ill. A few days after that, so does everyone you coughed over.

People are defending that man who coughed without covering his mouth constantly. It's disgusting for one, dangerous for another now. He's likely infected that whole store. What if one of you lot with asthma was in there at the time? You still feeling the need to defend him?

Well done everyone. Hmm

Maybe some common sense should be dished out to the public. Yes you might have had that cough for years, but you don't know what you currently have. Cover your mouth. It's quite simple.

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 09:38

nobody has defended anybody for not covering their mouth when coughing, quite the opposite.

Tonyaster · 04/04/2020 09:39

Everyone on here has said that they cover their mouth when they cough.

Do we really need to read more pointless boring comments telling people to cover their mouth when they cough?

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 09:40

not one post on this thread says he is ok to cough without covering his mouth

SudokuQueen · 04/04/2020 09:43

Anyone who is calling the op unreasonable for questioning why someone is out coughing over others without covering his mouth is defending that action he took. Hmm Otherwise you wouldn't call her unreasonable. She wasn't. He was a twat.

peterlon1 · 04/04/2020 09:43

The thread was whether OP had the legal right to interrogate him on someone else's property. and I am not going to go down this road again.

Tonyaster · 04/04/2020 09:44

Anyone who is calling the op unreasonable for questioning why someone is out coughing over others without covering his mouth is defending that action he took

No they aren't Confused

SudokuQueen · 04/04/2020 09:44

She asked him a question, he didn't have to answer. He could have used his brain, refused to answer and walked away.

Tonyaster · 04/04/2020 09:46

I'm not arguing the toss about an incident which may not have actually happened.

Yes, people should cover their mouth when they cough.

SudokuQueen · 04/04/2020 09:46

Yeah they are. You have no reason to be doing that. Blaming it on asthma? Not a reason. Maybe thanks to the fact she questioned him he won't do it again. Although it's too late now anyway.

Tonyaster · 04/04/2020 09:48

High blood pressure is a factor in severity of corona so do try not to get too worked up about things in general. Particularly things you can't control.

emilybrontescorsett · 04/04/2020 09:50

So why are people having a go at the op then?
She challenged a dirty man who was spreading germs in a public place.There are plenty of scrubbers around.
I saw a man coughing and spitting on the floor.
I turned and stared at him.
Dirty bastard, I don't care what he has, cover you mouth you dirty bastard!! And it's never ok to spit on the street.