WWYD? Grandad’s war record

[TrickyGrandad]

As a part of my son’s work sent home from school, there’s an investigation project into relatives experience of war, rationing, evacuation, service, that sort of thing.

WWYD if you knew that Grandad’s war record was highly controversial? My child never met this Grandad but knows where he fits in the family tree, obviously.

Would you use this as a learning experience OR keep it under wraps for when they’re older. Safe to say this isn’t an aspect of war that school are exploring.

Don’t lie though. Much, much easier to give a small dose truth (that it’s complicated or upsetting) and then expand later when he is a late teen or adult . Than to tell an outright lie (not suggesting you would do this, but a few people suggested this).

You're right, @midlifecrash I mean no Nazis ever loved their wives, or were kind to their children, or cherished their parents, did they? Or wrote, or painted, or played beautiful music.

I mean they were all to a man callous brutal sadists, weren't they?

"He was a high ranking Nazi officer."

Do NOT tell him this, especially as this knowledge would be shared with other kids

Wait until he has left school
At 18, he can better cope with this

I second you not to share. I'm of German descent on DM's side. No controversy but my DC in particular got called Nazis when other people knew even though my DGGF was a British PoW

This also happened to the son of a neighbour - and he didn't have any German ancestry; his mother was Polish. Heartbreakingly, she was one of the Ravensbruck "Rabbits", who had settled in the UK after the war, so not only was she physically and mentally scarred by her dreadful experience, but then had to see her son come home upset because bullies were calling him (and her) "Nazis". You can only imagine how dreadful this was for her.

I'd keep quiet about this GGF if I were you.

All germans had no choice but to be in the nazi party. However, high ranking is different. I would very much keep that quiet.

I mean no Nazis ever loved their wives, or were kind to their children, or cherished their parents, did they?

Oh well, if they loved their wives that makes it all right then

Personally I'd say the right thing would be to tell the truth. It's not his fault a relative from 80 years ago was a Nazi. It would be an opportunity to explain that people today are not responsible for things that happened before they were born. Also that "evil" Nazis were also people too. Every German soldier, every person involved in the supply chain for the Auschwitz gas chambers, every person who didn't stand up (and get shot) - they are all to some degree responsible, but that doesn't make them any less human.

I was reading about about it not long ago (Auschwitz by Sybille Steinbacher). It's remarkable how concentration camp employees, for example, were able to rationalise what they were doing. "Ordinary" people, for the most part, in extraordinary times. Much of it was simply about making money as much as any political ideology (which isn't to say the chemical suppliers, for instance, did not know what their products were going to be used for - they were fully complicit).

Probably just about everyone has someone unpleasant in their distant past. It's better to discuss it than hide it away.

Cohle that is not what she said.

There is a very good graphic novel called Heimat by Nora Krug that explores feelings about this for the current generation. They use it in German schools for older children and it is available in English translation now. Depending on your son's age I would really recommend it:

www.amazon.co.uk/Heimat-German-Family-Nora-Krug/dp/0141980109/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1585833984&sr=8-4

I think right now keep quiet and use another branch of the family. Or keep away from his occupation and beliefs. However I don’t think this should be hidden forever. You know and he should know later on. You need to judge when this should be. Millions of people living in Germany have this ancestry so you are not alone. Do any German web sites have advice?

I second not telling him yet. It really could be difficult to cope with.

My children knew their grandad and know that he was conscripted and sent to fight against the British. Luckily by the time he had finished training he was fighting the Nazis alongside the British!

Everytime he talked about the war he used to say how lucky he was that he never killed anyone (I don't know if this is actually true) and how much he hated it (I am sure this is true). He also never got on with his brother-in-law who joined the fascists of his own accord. In fact, right until the end of his life we could never have the whole family around for family occasions as he refused as somethings can never be forgiven. Obvoiusly, this is much easier to explain to my kids but in your situation I would definitely wait until your child is older and I wouldn't want school friends to know - unfortunately you don't know how some people could react.

Don't lie about it. The truth is that many people in Germany were Nazis. Most people, at least on the surface/in public, under the Reich. Covering it up is insulting to the victims.

Just for clarity, they weren’t German.

I think now is not the time, when the UK narrative is all "We won the War".

I needs to pass into history properly - when everyone who was involved in the war have passed away - which I think will be about 20 years time.

My DH is German so our family has a slightly more controversial war history than most and both my DC have had some negative comments from so called “friends “ at school, especially when they were covering the 2nd WW
However, we have always been pretty open with the dc about it and have explained that we can’t condemn people when we weren’t in their shoes. We have taken them to Zeppelin platz and they have stood in the spot where Hitler spoke at his rallies and we discussed how this would have appealed to the German people at the time. Basically we have done our best to put things in context and DS in particular is very proud of his heritage and some items we have that have been passed down.
However, we don’t have such a strong Nazi connection so I would probably try and tone that down a bit if I were you as for Y6 it’s probably a bit much.

My Austrian great grandfather came to UK to marry my Great Grandmother during the war - they’d fallen in love on holiday. Anyway when he got to the uk he was kept in a uk pow camp, they like to ignore we had those, and was there a month before he could leave and marry my grandmother. To be safe he stopped practicing Judaism and photos of him and his siblings have scratch or burn marks where the stars would be.

Sorry, haven't read all the thread, was he high in the party, general armed services such as wermacht or in the SS? If regular services then I might let them if they were 'armed' with facts if any other child has a go (defensive briefing, so to speak). If party or SS then I wouldn't. Many regular service men stayed after PoW in the UK and I understand some of the SS settled in the UK after the war and raised families so you won't be the only person in the same situation, OP.

I taught a girl whose g grandad was SS, it made for a really interesting lesson. She brought in pics where he's wearing full black SS uniform. She was year 9 though, also came on a trip to Auschwitz with school a year later because she wanted to know about it.

I was suggesting German advice as they are the nation with the most descendants from Nazis. Austria might be a good second choice. It doesn’t really matter where you get advice from but seeking out others who have successfully navigated this could be useful. It’s obviously not an uncommon problem in some countries but it’s not so common here.

My friend's father (fairly recently deceased) was a member of the Hitler Youth when he was a little kid. He said that his memories of it were great! He was fed properly, which was wonderful - as he wasn't often given warm meals at home, and certainly not at home, they provided warm clothing and new boots to keep his feet warm and dry. They sang songs and danced around. He was too little to do any fighting, or play with weaponry. He had no clue about the politics. (He was six or seven at the time.). He got to have fun with other kids, instead of hanging around his house with his frightened mother, wondering if his father was going to come home. Despite the poverty of post-war Germany, he evolved into the person he truly wanted to be. He grew up to be a pathologist who donated his time and talent (in a very catholic country) offering free anonymous HIV/AIDS screening tests as soon as they were developed, when it was considered to be a "Gay Man's Disease." He absolutely abhored racism and intolerance of any kind - because it defied logic, and was one of the kindest, gentlest, funniest people I ever met in my life. He told me that he knew that his parents were Nazis because they needed to survive. If he'd been older, he may have even believed that crap, because he would have had no choice in the matter.

My FIL's dad, DH's grandad was in the Luftwaffe and shot down over Scotland and was a POW. He settled in the U.K. but FIL was bullied relentlessly for having a German surname and refuses to discuss this even now. It's quite upsetting as he can't help his heritage. DH wasn't affected and neither will our DC be, as they'll be 3rd generation British by that point and names are so multicultural anyway.

I wouldn't tell DS until you have to TBH.

I'd probably tell DS that that he had family living in England and others in whichever European country his GGD was from, but you know a bit more about the English relatives/can't find that bit of info about GGD just now.
But I would tell him properly as a teen.

My DC asked their GGM (now 90) about her experience as an evacuee. Not hugely nice. But she gave a relatively child friendly version.
We also know pretty horrible things about DH's grandfather, but will tell them when they are older.

Sometimes the things set about the past are not hugely sensitive. It's tricky.

Lots of Germans were rounded up here and taken to camps “for their own safety” and Italian PoWs worked on the land around here. Lots of their descendants have stayed!

I’ve not read the full thread but from what I have read I think you’re right not to share that with the class - it’s the type of thing a kid would get really badly bullied for through no fault of their own.

I am pointing out that some people, and particularly children, see things as very black and white.
They cannot see that humans are infinitely complicated creatures.

So yes, there are war criminals that genuinely loved their own families, just as there are surely victims of the holocaust that were abusive to their wives and/or children, or thieves or rapists or whatever.

People held up as paragons of virtue still have faults. Mahatma Gandhi and Mother Theresa are two that come to mind.