To think that some Mumsnetters hate men?

[Ruby8719]

Am I being unreasonable to think that some (not all) mumsnetters hate men and can’t wait to jump in and tell women to leave their husbands?

Obviously there are a lot of stories on here about husbands/boyfriends/dads that sound like arseholes but the amount of comments I see from strangers telling women to leave their men for making a mistake is crazy!!

Nope, the way to end inequality is to stop excusing the Good Men from any responsibility from the Bad Men, and stop making it a women’s issue instead of a men’s one.

What responsibility do good men have for bad men? Seriously? I can sort of see your argument for a man to challenge a friend for making a sexist comment, or a misogynistic joke. But what more should they be doing? Become vigilantes and patrol the streets?

I'm not responsible for the shite women that are out there are you? I'm not responsible for the women who abuse their children or who commit crimes or who do other bad things so why are good men responsible for the bad men?

Inequality is everyone's responsibility, which is why I point it out whenever I see it, and whichever way it goes. Good men don't need excusing from the responsibility any more than women do, and women have no more right to treat men badly than men do, women.

It’s not an argument, it’s a fact. Men are killing women at the rate of two per week - so let’s not pretend there’s any question over which sex has the better deal in society. Women are dying at the hands of men at a rate of two per week and you are confused at whether or not we have equality in the UK? It’s you who has the warped view, I’m afraid.

But it makes zero sense.

More than 2 men a week are murdered so how do men have a better deal?

An example... Husband had a couple of friends over and they were drinking. Wife was kind of in and out doing her own thing. Friends and husband got to talking about their spouses and one thing led to another and husband asked wife to come over to them for a second, and husband lifted up her shirt to show everyone how great of a chest she had. Hot take on that situation?

I'm not responsible for the shite women that are out there are you? I'm not responsible for the women who abuse their children or who commit crimes or who do other bad things so why are good men responsible for the bad men

This is the crux of the whole thing.

I'm not responsible for the shite women that are out there are you? I'm not responsible for the women who abuse their children or who commit crimes or who do other bad things so why are good men responsible for the bad men?

Well yes - women do take responsibility for other women. That’s why women set up refuges and fight for fair abortion rights. That’s why the feminist movement exists - to have choices but also to recognise that choice doesn’t exist in a vacuum. You already do take responsibility for child abuse (I’m assuming) by not doing it, not making jokes about it, not seeing it as ‘just one of those things’ or ‘they deserved it’ or ‘that child is probably lying’. You probably don’t go to places where children are forced to perform sexual acts for the gratification of adults. If you heard of a situation where two children per week were being killed by women, you’d probably be outraged and take to the streets, write to your MP, go on Internet forums where people said NAWALT and point out how and why they’re wrong to say that.

My (only just) ex-h was psychologically and physically abusive. Whenever a thought of him enters my head (a few times a day), my instant, visceral response is, "I wish he was dead", or "I wish he didn't exist", or something else along those lines. I know not all men are violent. But God, I wish he was gone and I didn't have to think about him anymore.

Ok, question. Outside of obvious anatomical differences are men and women fundamentally "different" ?

Pumperthepumper

How is supporting abortion rights or setting up refuges an example of good women being responsible for bad women, because that's what we are talking about.

You go on to say that I take responsibility for child abuse by not doing it, not making jokes about it etc etc etc - well I don't know of any men who do that either, so therefore that must be examples of good men taking responsibility and yet you're determined to argue that this doesn't happen.

If by taking responsibility you mean don't commit the crime then sure, I guess. I don't see "not committing a crime" as taking responsibility for the people who do though.

So you are happy to be viewed as a child abuser, because you are a woman, pump ? Because many abused children are abused by women. You're comfortable to be viewed that way? To take that level of responsibility? Because that's the level we're talking about: direct suspicion and accusation of being an abuser, despite your innocence.

No, I don’t mean not committing the crime - I mean condemning sexism against women in all its forms.

Abortion rights aren’t about taking responsibility for bad women, they’re about taking responsibility for womenkind. I thought that was clear. I then went on to say how we take responsibility for Bad Women, using your example of child abuse.

You are very lucky to not know one single man in your family, extended family, colleagues, neighbours, school friends, friends of friends, any man in your life who doesn’t go so far as to even make a sexist joke. Suspiciously lucky, in fact.

So you are happy to be viewed as a child abuser, because you are a woman, pump ? Because many abused children are abused by women. You're comfortable to be viewed that way? To take that level of responsibility? Because that's the level we're talking about: direct suspicion and accusation of being an abuser, despite your innocence.

Are we having the ‘men who don’t do enough to combat rape are rapists’ conversation AGAIN Eckhart? Are you still clinging to that?

Aside from that, yes - I am absolutely happy to take responsibility for child abuse and to do my very best to stop it. I will never abuse a child. I will never joke about it. I will never not believe a child. I will never for a second think child abuse, in any form, is justified. I’m absolutely happy with that stance, yes.

Pumperthepumper

I literally have no idea what you are going on about.

You started this by saying that good men should take responsibility for bad men.

Now you are saying that women take responsibility for other women by supporting abortion and refuges - but this isn't taking responsibility in the way you said men should take responsibility and so it makes no sense to raise it in this context.

Then you go on to say that eg you take responsibility for women who commit child abuse by not doing it, by not joking about it, by not justifying it - well, err great. But again, I don't know any men who commit murder, or rape or child abuse, who joke about any of those of who justify them. So I do not get the point that you are making.

That to me is not an example of a good person (man or woman) taking responsibility for what a bad person does. That's an example of a good person being a good person.

I literally have no idea what you are going on about.

I think you do, Hooves. I think I’ve been pretty clear. The problem is that you can’t argue with the logic of ‘how we condemn bad things in society, and how men aren’t doing enough condemning of sexism’.

You are so lucky not to know a single man in your entire life who makes sexist jokes. Very, very lucky. Not even one, not even once.

They are good examples of good people being good people, aren’t they? Which leads to the excellent conclusion of ‘child abuse in all forms is wrong, and we won’t stand for it’. Now imagine if men thought like that about sexism against women. All those good men. All those good things.

are men and women fundamentally "different" ?. In the context of this discussion, one difference is that men, as a sex, commit much more violence than women. As things stand, I’d say it is a fundamental difference. Not acknowledging this means little is done about it.

You're happy to be called a child abuser, pump?

Did you read my post Eckhart? Here it is, if you missed it, where I answered that question already:

Are we having the ‘men who don’t do enough to combat rape are rapists’ conversation AGAIN Eckhart? Are you still clinging to that?

Aside from that, yes - I am absolutely happy to take responsibility for child abuse and to do my very best to stop it. I will never abuse a child. I will never joke about it. I will never not believe a child. I will never for a second think child abuse, in any form, is justified. I’m absolutely happy with that stance, yes.

Loads of men joke about it :/ it's a common theme.

Strangely and coincidentally I was getting some books to swap for book Day. FIL is always giving her random books from charity shop, I thought don't recognise this and flipped through. It was a joke book and the first joke I read was about a man strangling his wife. Flipped again, joke about how awful wives are. Flipped again, another one. I was wtf. It was a Harry hill thing from only a few years back. Jokes about teachers as well so think aimed at kids.

Do you really never hear jokes about rape, murder of women? The men at my work who are all v nice make references to drugging women hahaha. This stuff is common!

I sometimes wonder how people seem to inhabit such different worlds, notice such different stuff.

Maintaining a stance isn't 'clinging' to anything. If it is, are you still clinging to your point of view?
men who don’t do enough to combat rape are rapists I have neither said nor believe this.

You said other people believe that.

Yes, I read it. I just can't believe that anybody would say they were OK with being called a child abuser. If you're ok with that, I have no idea how to comprehend your standpoint here. I was already struggling!

I didn't say that. I said something else, and either you or someone else inferred that, then called me stupid for the inference.

I can believe you don’t understand it, Eckhart. It involves a fair bit of critical thinking.

Do you really think that’s what that post says? Is it worth me explaining it to you in easier language? Or are you just pretending?

pump thanks for the chat. I can't be bothered anymore. Clearly we're from different planets and must agree to disagree.

I think it's the opposite. Single dads, male teachers and men doing some washing up are fawned over.