To think families are going to have to look after their own old people?

[ElderAve]

It's not a judgement, the idea fills me with dread but how else are we supposed to pay for it? In a world where:

• It's political suicide to suggest that people who have valuable homes, they are no longer living in should use that value to pay for care.
• Everyone should be paid a proper living wage.
• We have increasing numbers of people needing care.

For example, between DH and I we have 4 elderly parents, still very much fit and well, but realistically, that can't carry on forever. Those parents have 4 working offspring.

I don't know how many residents a care home worker can care for but let's say it's 12, which to provide 24hr care means 3 shifts, so the equivalent of 1 full person to care for our 4 parents. That means that the state needs to raise tax equivalent to 1 (living wage) salary from the four of us and that's before paying for schools, hospitals etc.

Obviously not everyone has elderly parents needing care but those will often be heavy users of the schools system and we still need to pay for all the other services.

I just can't see how the state can do it, if they keep promising not to take the elderly's homes, which is so emotive.

janemaster I'm talking about proposals to make people sell homes to pay for care of any type. Yes the current care-needers could probably do that, ditto baby boom generation, but after that there aren't as likely to be the same capital assets sitting in the hands of the care-needers.

Seems that big pharmaceutical companies are happy to keep people going when many probably don't want to !

In which case they won’t be working and paying the taxes to support those who have lived in social or privately rented housing all their lives

And some of those living in rented homes will be the care workers working in the nursing homes FFS!

And another point How can care workers afford insurance for their old age that some pps keep wanging on about

Realistically the people I know who have gone into a care homes have used their house funds from their house sale unless a relative stayed behind in the house.

Reasonable dementia care homes in London and the SE start at £50,000 a year.

I agree that it's only women who are viewed as selfish. And moreover, on that one you can't win. I had strips torn off me on this very forum a few years back when I mentioned that I lived in my 'home' area, near to my parents, as I provided care for them. Which meant that I could never hope to earn a huge salary (as it is a low salary area of the UK) and pay huge amounts of tax. Apparently that made me selfish, because having been educated I owe it to the taxpayer to earn a big salary and pay more tax. And it wasn't just one poster, it was many of them.

So there you go. Move away, and earn more money, otherwise you are just selfish. Stay close to home and look after your parents, otherwise you are just selfish.

Have never heard these accusations thrown at men. Ever.

There was a good piece in the observer today about the division now between the high end care homes - of which there are many and many more are being built - business at that end is flourishing - and the other end of the market where care homes at astonishing rate because the money they receive from the council does not cover the cost of care.

People already do pay for their own care.

Not sure what else people think they are saving up for when building up savings/paying a mortgage, if it's not to look after you when you get old.

I had strips torn off me on this very forum a few years back when I mentioned that I lived in my 'home' area, near to my parents, as I provided care for them. Which meant that I could never hope to earn a huge salary (as it is a low salary area of the UK) and pay huge amounts of tax. Apparently that made me selfish, because having been educated I owe it to the taxpayer to earn a big salary and pay more tax. And it wasn't just one poster, it was many of them

There are some quite thick posters on these forums though. That’s not very representive (or indeed sensible) view.

I'm absolutely not saving up to fund my old age, beyond my pension anyway. I'm saving for holidays and then for my kids and plan on giving most of my assets to them when I retire.

hem. Yet again some people have high care needs at 75 and it is their spouse looking after them

Unless the spouse is under pension age and on a low income. For any new claimant couples were one is under state pension age its now UC with all the work commitments that entails.

The stay at home v work outside the home are big subjects that cause a big old bun fight! Nobody wins that argument unfortunately. Same with this ; I feel bad i don't care for my dad but it is what it is.
I have my own family and children to look out for and work too. you can't do it all even if society thinks you should.

@GrumpiestOldWoman Supply and demand. As the boomer sell their homes to pay for care homes the housing market will eventually become saturated with empty homes meaning that housing will become more affordable

It might be that this burden is not expected of men, but the nastiest comments and judgements IME about putting a parent into care have always been from other women.

@LilyJade your posts really resonated with me.

My Dad is early 90s and has gone downhill health wise this last year. He stopped taking his medication and then had a stroke, plus they suspect early dementia. He's just been sectioned again as he won't engage with the health care services. They broke down the door when he wouldn't let them in.

He's now back on a ward where they have other very ill people with many different conditions roaming the hallways. He was attacked by another patient last time he was there, they went into his room and came at him while he was in the toilet.

He won't have carers in and he won't co-operate or discuss anything to do with his care. He has been very violent towards my mum (lifelong issue) and last year I told him I'd had enough, but that I'd help organise and sort out any care, arrangements, assistance, adjustments etc. He wouldn't do anything.

It's heartbreaking to see. Worst thing is my mum, who is still hanging in there despite years of abuse, having to visit this dingy ward with little to no supervision, no handover and no communication. I wish he would just meet us half way.

I couldn't save up to fund my old age if I wanted to. I'm too busy caring for the elderly for not enough money to live on!.

As for costs, the home I work in starts FROM £1300 per week. Its significantly more if you need to be in the nursing wing.
There is the building to pay for, maintenance, heating, water etc. Gardeners , maintenance men, laundry workers and cleaners. A nurse. Carers. . Chefs and wait staff for the 'restaurant'. Food, 3 meals per day with a menu to choose from. Snacks. Tea and coffee. Then entertainment. So getting in choirs, musicians, whatever. Activity co-ordinators. Someone to drive the vehicles so the residents can go out. Plus carers to go with them.

On a usual day there would be 3 carers for between 15-20 (the number fluctuated regularly) residents in the morning. 2 carers for the same number on the late shift. The least I ever had to get up was 2
Sometimes it was 6. Most days 4-5. All need time and patience. Some beds need changing daily. Some could be done weekly. Residents that were taken to the dining room for breakfast then needed bringing back and they, understandably, didnt like waiting for too long. So we have to find time to do that between washing/dressing/feeding in rooms/changing beds. We had one resident who would undress himself and then call the bell because he was cold. This was repeatedly.
3 carers was not enough for this level of work. I regularly didn't get my break. I actually did some late shifts where I was the only carer for those 15-20 people.

It's no wonder I've been off sick for so long.

That said. I would happily care for my parents/Grandparents if I needed to. Provided I could do so and still pay my Bill's that is! My Grandad is 85 and still lives alone. Who knows how long that will continue. I could, at a push, lose a reception room and he could have a very small bedroom here.

Not sure what else people think they are saving up for when building up savings/paying a mortgage, if it's not to look after you when you get old. It's to fund your life when you get old, to supplement your state pension and anything you get from an occupational pension, pay for gardening, taxis etc. I don't think many people are saving with the idea that there will come a time when they're spending it at the rate of £900or £1000 a week.

And you hope that what's left over will help make your children's life easier, or pay for your grandchildren to go to university.

For most people that works. But an unlucky minority survive to go into a care home, and everything is taken off them.

Women putting other women down is a constant theme on mumsnet and in real life. It Seems we can't support , only criticise their choices ! Or maybe we just don't expect men to feel guilty about these things so don't bother asking them how they feel about it?
Anyway, I can't see families doing more caring but I can see more homes being built over time! What they will cost will go up and up and only the rich will be able to afford them. Maybe the work houses also might have a comeback? The Tories would like that.

As the boomer sell their homes to pay for care homes the housing market will eventually become saturated with empty homes meaning that housing will become more affordable No they won't. Increasing population means the market won't become saturated, and the supply of new homes will dwindle if they ever become less profitable

My father needed 24 hour care for the last year of his life. He needed hoisting in & out of bed, his wheelchair etc etc. How could we do that in our home when we work? He had NHS funding but otherwise we would have sold his house to pay for the care (his was £1500/week).

Euthanasia could increase that abuse. I see it as abuse that I'm forced to pay to be kept alive against my will.

The abuse of euthanasia I'd always rolled out and that's why governments won't support it. I understand it's not without it's pitfalls but surely it's better than keeping people alive that don't want to be!
I think it's more to do with the fact that many MP's have shares in care homes too ( or pharmaceuticals companies) !
Either way it should be debated more robustly. Nothing will change though.
It's so depressing.

Work in a care home and I hope to help with my parents care but could not do it full time as I can not afford not to work!

They want us working ; they want us to care for parents. They want it all!
Can't be done.

As a single woman with chronic illness who works & doesn't drive I actually wouldn't be able to care for my divorced parents anyway realistically!

It's to fund your life when you get old, to supplement your state pension and anything you get from an occupational pension, pay for gardening, taxis etc. I don't think many people are saving with the idea that there will come a time when they're spending it at the rate of £900or £1000 a week.

I think part of the issue is that, other than to complain about the concept of "having to sell their home", we as a country don't actually talk about what's involved with elder care. If you've not been directly involved with the residential care of a relative, would you know how much it costs?

There needs to be a cultural shift so people view the costs of care, either in home or residential, as just one of the costs of getting old. There will always be people who can't afford to fund their own care, and there will always be people who require some level of government supplement, just as there will always be people who require in-work and out-of-work benefits to make ends meet while they're of working age. Just because some people up the road get housing benefit to cover most the cost of their rent doesn't mean anyone who self-funds their rent because they earn above the threshold is a mug.