To think families are going to have to look after their own old people?

[ElderAve]

It's not a judgement, the idea fills me with dread but how else are we supposed to pay for it? In a world where:

• It's political suicide to suggest that people who have valuable homes, they are no longer living in should use that value to pay for care.
• Everyone should be paid a proper living wage.
• We have increasing numbers of people needing care.

For example, between DH and I we have 4 elderly parents, still very much fit and well, but realistically, that can't carry on forever. Those parents have 4 working offspring.

I don't know how many residents a care home worker can care for but let's say it's 12, which to provide 24hr care means 3 shifts, so the equivalent of 1 full person to care for our 4 parents. That means that the state needs to raise tax equivalent to 1 (living wage) salary from the four of us and that's before paying for schools, hospitals etc.

Obviously not everyone has elderly parents needing care but those will often be heavy users of the schools system and we still need to pay for all the other services.

I just can't see how the state can do it, if they keep promising not to take the elderly's homes, which is so emotive.

Is it wrong that I kind of want to hate read that thread isabellerossignol?

Successive governments have dodged this one. Under Cameron they promised that after £ 75000 the state would pick up Care bills. But then along came Brexit and what with commuting back and forth to Brussels Theresa May seemed to forget all about it. Bojo made some promises when campaigning but has gone Schtum on the subject so far.
I went through 5 years of supporting my father with dementia, organising his care, managing his finances. I know how cripplingly expensive it all is. Under the current system if you get any illness but dementia and some degenerative neurological conditions the NHS pays for everything. If it’s dementia, you pay for everything because all that is available is arbitrarily deemed to be social, not health care. Imagine having cancer and being presented with the bill for chemo, radio, surgery, your hospital stay etc. Ditto renal failure, dialysis costs and so on. Just cross your fingers you or your parents do not get dementia, because then you have the double whammy of having to manage everything, and picking up crippling care bills.. The only fair way forward is for increased taxation, which increases with age, to fund provision for care for persons with dementia. Or the current system, but let’s be honest and call it what it is, a lottery which is loaded against those unfortunate enough to get dementia, and their families.

Whataboutbob, so true!
It's completely unfair all round. Dementia doesn't have a limit to how long you can live with it for so governments don't want to know and just kick the can down the road.

Dear AlderAve ... "we" dont prefer euthanasia but "I" would definitely want this as an option in the choice of alternatives on offer which obviously include drugs, palliative care, do not resuscitate (excuse spelling) and so on.

I would not want my money going into the pockets of care home owners instead of my own children even if my own children would rather I stayed alive for as long as possible. I am cross I do not have personal choice and have saved up money to go to Dignitas should we still be archiac by the time I get to that situation ... but why cant I just take a Mickey Finn, all arrangements in place before.

Is it wrong that I kind of want to hate read that thread isabellerossignol?

It was on chat, so long gone, and I was under a different user name. But it started as a discussion on salaries I think, and people (like me) who lived in lower salaried areas of the UK were saying that even with good qualifications, and a good work ethic, there was no way we were likely to earn the sort of salaries that people in the London area were considering to be 'normal'. And then all hell broke loose, with people pouncing and saying that if you are too lazy to leave your home area and move to the south east, then you clearly have no work ethic and you're out to bleed the country dry, and we should be denied access to the NHS, or a state pension and all sorts of stuff like that. When people like me pointed out that there is a lot more to 'contributing to society' than just paying income tax (such as being unpaid carers), we were told we were wrong. Apparently we should be working 300 hours a day, paying zillions in taxes and paying other people to look after our relatives. It's our duty. It was epic!

So many people want euthanasia to be the law etc but they won't do anything about it and just vote against it all the time!
It will never be in place in the U.K.
it's madness , but there you are.

I see it as abuse that I'm forced to pay to be kept alive against my will.

I agree! And making pentobarbital available to people who have been just diagnosed with dementia and simply do not want to live to any progression is not euthanasia but legalised assisted suicide, which I think should be an option for anyone diagnosed with a progressive disease for which there is no cure.

If I get a dementia diagnoses and still have some capacity I'd rather die sooner rather than later. It should be my right!

How utterly batshit isabelle. Speaking as another one who earns much less because of a desire to live outside the south east. As if the country needs more people trying to crowd into the most densely populated, expensive and water stressed area!

helenadove
“In which case they won’t be working and paying the taxes to support those who have lived in social or privately rented housing all their lives”

And some of those living in rented homes will be the care workers working in the nursing homes FFS

Yes, but wasn’t the point that if people stop work to care for their parents, those people won’t be out working and paying taxes and so fewer people to contribute to the care of those who haven’t got a home to sell? Someone has to support care for those who haven’t got a home to sell!

As I said upthread we have re-mortgaged my parents house to provide live in care. If they last longer than 3 years the money will be gone. I can’t pay. But I can keep working and contributing to the system.

It will all work out when childcare becomes extremely expensive because of lack of au-pairs because of no freedom of movement post Brexit, so the grandparents will do the childcare and house cleaning/cooking in return for care for themselves (so no charge on either side).
Yay, the sunlit uplands are within reach.

People have to work till they drop : will all these parents want to care for their grand kids? I know I wouldn't want to all the time! Plus people have to work to. Not everyone has pensions.
Governments don't care. It's just a logistical nightmare!

To all those who say I wouldn’t want to live if I had dementia. Well, it’s not really that simple. People tend to hold on to life, no matter how diminished it is. I worked in palliative care for 7 years, typically people would say things such as” when it gets to the point where I can’t go to the toilet alone, I want to die”. Then the goalposts would change and it would be when I can’t feed myself, etc. It was very rare for someone to take their own life, even with a terrible diagnosis, such as AIDS in the pre effective treatment days. The degeneration is gradual and people adapt, plus insight wanes with dementia.

@whataboutbob - that point about the NHS not covering it is interesting, because in the gap between my grandfather and grandmother getting dementia (about 20 years), it went from being part of NHS care to social care and noone really noticed...

I've discussed ths on here before, but dementia care has been the perfect example of how to sneakily privatise something out of the NHS with few people noticing.

My grandfather was cared for on the 'geriatrics' ward in a local hospital. It was a large ward with curtains round the beds, not private rooms. There was good care, but not very nice. He was in there for 6 years before his death. Care homes were for 'posh' people, 'normal' people were cared for in NHS wards. Then the last year of his life, they were closing down the wards, social services were funding places in private care homes, this was considered better by families, so noone minded the NHS option was going away. Then within a couple of years, it became clear that this wasn't sustainable and everyone had to pay for their own place.

will all these parents want to care for their grand kids

This is an interesting dilemma. On many MN threads everyone always says that grandparents shouldn't feel obliged to care for grandkids because they've "done their bit" and should enjoy their retirement.
Fine.
But then MN also expect grown up children to look after their elderly parents even though they might be already "doing their bit" with their own kids.

Dementia care ; It became privately funded by stealth.
Very cleverly done and it's how they will do it for other services the NHS fund as well.
They just have to play the long game but it's doable.

The issue of selling homes does seem emotive. But, rarely do families seem to think it's worth keeping a house empty for 7 - 10 years while the older person is in a home. It usually becomes clear they can't live in the house so the house needs to be sold anyway.

Then it's not "selling the house to pay for care" but "is it right that someone with £400k in savings gets their rent and food for free just because it's in a carehome?" and that feels rather different to "make them sell their home".

Double standards indeed with regarding care for children and parents!
My parents and in laws did not look after my children at all : of you want them you look after them was the mantra.
Other people had oodles of help.

Euthanasia law can be used to forward plan if you have dementia - decide the point at which you do not wish to continue and then it is implemented later on

Really wish we had euthanasia in the UK

There are probably increasing numbers of people where grandparents helping to care for their grandchildren, to allow parents to work, isn't in any way feasible. My parents were in their 40s when I was born, and by the time my children were born they were well into their 70s. They had helped with childcare for my older siblings, but just were no longer capable of it by the time my children were born. That's not going to be an unusual scenario I'd imagine.

Families used to look after their own old people or to correct that women used to do all the caring - childcare, old people care, wifework etc. The thing is, in the western world, women have moved on - we've had to (and most of us welcome it). When 2 salaries were required to afford a mortgage women had to go back to work and we can't and won't do everything. Whilst this has been liberating for women, thank goodness, I don't think the government thought it through. So now we have a situation where women are no longer prepared to be free or cheap labour (why should we) and shock, horror it's more expensive than they thought. We are all seeing how caring jobs (done by women) are labelled as low/no skilled and paid accordingly.

I am constantly amazed how every corner of society expects the government to pick up absolutely anything that is difficult/costly. Responsiblity for self and family is disappearing fast, we cannot afford this people have to take responsbility for themselves and their families.

If IDS gets his way and we all have to work full time to the age of 75, most of us aren't going to be able to look after our parents. Or we are going to be working 8 hours a day and going home to another shift at night. In our 70s.

@isabellerossignol that previous thread sounds batshit tbh. There are a few on here who would still come out with the same crap

So many people want euthanasia to be the law etc but they won't do anything about it and just vote against it all the time! We haven't any choice. None of the parties has included euthanasia in its manifesto.

So do you use a childminder @sewingsinger