To think families are going to have to look after their own old people?

[ElderAve]

It's not a judgement, the idea fills me with dread but how else are we supposed to pay for it? In a world where:

• It's political suicide to suggest that people who have valuable homes, they are no longer living in should use that value to pay for care.
• Everyone should be paid a proper living wage.
• We have increasing numbers of people needing care.

For example, between DH and I we have 4 elderly parents, still very much fit and well, but realistically, that can't carry on forever. Those parents have 4 working offspring.

I don't know how many residents a care home worker can care for but let's say it's 12, which to provide 24hr care means 3 shifts, so the equivalent of 1 full person to care for our 4 parents. That means that the state needs to raise tax equivalent to 1 (living wage) salary from the four of us and that's before paying for schools, hospitals etc.

Obviously not everyone has elderly parents needing care but those will often be heavy users of the schools system and we still need to pay for all the other services.

I just can't see how the state can do it, if they keep promising not to take the elderly's homes, which is so emotive.

There are some really naive comments on here. My dad has advanced dementia, Alzheimers, double incontinence, strips off naked all the time, displays threatening behaviour one minute and loving the next. He hasn't got a clue who any of us are and only sleeps for about 2-3hours at a time. As a partially disabled woman with children am I meant to take him in? Is it right for my primary age DD to see her naked grandad threatening me? As a family of 5 in a 3 bedroom house, where am I meant to put him? Some people are clueless about dementia, it's reality and the increasing prevalence.

Yes, but the fees from paying residents go into making the place good for all. Meals, furniture, activities, gardens, nice biscuits...

Personally I am against euthanasia. Fine if others want to. But I do not want a situation where I feel forced into it, or treated as selfish because I do not want it.
Older frail people are very vulnerable. Many are already abused and taken advantage of by families. Euthanasia could increase that abuse.

And many older people who are incontinent and need help still get a lot of pleasure out of life. I am actually always surprised that so many people see incontinence as something that means life is no longer worth living. I have a chronic illness and for some months when I was younger I was doubly incontinent. I also had young kids and worked full-time. Managing double incontinence while working can be a struggle, but it did not stop me enjoying life or looking after my kids.

I remember being about 10
I remember seeing an elderly female neighbor with 2 black eyes & other bruises.
Stories about this lady burning the kitchen
She had numerous falls
She had a son, who did not live locally
After a time, she went into a nursing home
I went to visit with a relative, it was several miles away in the countryside, in a huge, old house with dark brown wooden paneling.

Until you have seen or experienced, please do not judge

Of course women are selfish for not caring for dementia patients ; men are not seen as selfish are they? Strange that.
It's a complex disease and not everyone is the same that has it. It's cruel and takes the ' real' person away. It also must be exhausting if you do this job every single day without a break. People that do are real hero's in my book! It must also be a lonely life too.

Yes, 24/7 really does mean 24/7 caring for some people with dementia. You might be able to manage a loo break, but showers, trips to the shops, cooking, trips to the doctors for your own health needs, all become a huge logistical exercise.

Only a minority of people do end their days in residential care, and of those only a minority live long enough to cost the value of an average house, but the random nature of the burden, the gross unfairness of the way that self-funders have to subsidise the council funded, and the perceived incentive to spend rather than save into retirement means that we should find a better way: a more equitable state-backed insurance solution.

There are some really naive comments on here

I'm so sorry @airbags that sounds so stressful. Its not just naive, its incredibly ignorant. Its easy to tell others theyre "selfish" when you have the reality of an unbroken nights sleep and arent dealing with this kind f stuff. Its rather different when the boot is on the other foot I think!

People’s homes should be used to finance their care- if their relatives would prefer the inheritance they can look after them!
Agree, my parents and PIL know that I do not expect a inheritance and they should use their assets to pay for the best care they can afford.

I won't be caring for them though, I don't have it in me and will likely still be working anyway.

@airbags Of course you cannot look after him.
Everyone I know who has looked after a partner or parent with dementia has ended up putting them in a home. I don't know how one person could possibly manage someone with advanced dementia unless they drugged them up or tied them down.

But also agree that people in earlier stages of dementia can still have a pleasurable life. I knew a semi famous artist with dementia. In the earlier/middle stages he still painted. The standard sadly went downhill, but he got so much pleasure out of it. With early stage dementia strangers often won't realise that there are any issues with the person at all, although someone who knows a bit about dementia can sometimes spot coping strategies e.g. in shops holding out a palmful of money for the assistant to take what is owed.

I won’t be caring for my dps, at all. I won’t have my dc caring for me. I won’t ever buy a property. I have life insurance for dc up until I’m 87. I plan on growing old disgracefully with no debt & I plan to off myself with medication when/if I get to stage when a little help with a an Asda trip & a tidy up isn’t enough

I'd rather be dead than have someone care for me who doesn't want to to or has to suffer their own life to look after me.
It's how I feel! I can't speak for others of course.
I had no idea about Dementia till it affected us as a family. It's only then you realise how terrible it can be.

@airbags I totally agree with what you have said, and I’m sorry you’re living with this terrible illness in your family too. It’s a constant worry. The other point I would make is that the focus on care in the home sometimes misses the point. My mum doesn’t mind doing personal care for my dad or giving him medication. It’s the 24/7 nature of it that is the problem. Being woken up multiple times a night, aggressive behaviour, not being able to leave him for long to go out and do other things (including care for her elderly mother - people who have more than one person to care for in different locations don’t even get a mention in these discussions). The only solution for this is for him to be in a place of safety ie a care home with trained carers 24/7

The chance of dementia increases significantly the older you get. I know not everyone gets it, but if you live long enough, there is a high risk.
I used to want to live as long as I possibly could. Seeing the realities of very old age has made me change my mind. I know you see people on TV who are a 100, still do their own shopping and totally with it. But they are unusual.

I am 50. I know several people who still have children and elderly parents they are helping out with, and they work. There is physically so much they can do.
Most couples though will end up with one caring for the other.

Some people think it's odd if you don't care for your parents but also think it's odd if you choose not to work and stay at home with children : you can't please everyone and it's not until you experience it for yourself that you realise how bad it can get! Been a learning curve for me over the years : I hadn't a clue. It's not a job I could do I know that.

*People’s homes should be used to finance their care- if their relatives would prefer the inheritance they can look after them!

Agree, my parents and PIL know that I do not expect a inheritance and they should use their assets to pay for the best care they can afford.*

Is this sustainable though. The current very elderly generation are often well housed, and their children e.g. baby boomers also were able to buy homes and accumulate assets. It's well known that the next few generations are struggling to get onto the housing ladder in the first place, will a generation of millennials have anything like the same assets?

"I'd love to know how the (many) people who feel so strongly that homes shouldn't be used to pay for care think it can be funded"

How do we fund the care for people who haven't got homes to sell?

Why are care homes so expensive

Good question. We are employing live in care for my two parents paid for from a loan against their house. (it won't last long!)

For TWO people, this costs us under £1050 pw all in, food for parents plus carer, relief carer for live-in carer breaks, bills etc.

You would expect that a care home with probably a higher ratio of patients to staff and able to cater at scale etc would not be more than double that.

It is a racket.

And yes, self-funded residents subsidise those who are state funded.

I did it as a job. Although a hard job if you do it well, it is different from working 8 hours and then going home, to being with the person most or all of the time.

What is really short sighted is that a lot of services that helped those still staying at home with help, have been cut. So a friend's grandmother used to get collected by minibus and taken to a charity run club twice a week. This no longer exists. But these kind of activities can help people stay alert enough to stay at home and can give a carer a much needed break.

The young are not going to be buying these expensive baby boomer homes to finance their care because they can't afford them!
There will be a stalemate at some point.
It's a ticking time bomb all round.
Plus care home fees will go up and up too.

I don't know how to quote previous posts, but thank you Lindorballs and Janemaster. Sadly, having made the very tough decision to put my dad in a care home he has been moved 4 times as even professionals have trouble coping with his behaviour. Lindorballs - I feel for your mum and my heart goes out to your family - it really is a very cruel disease and the relentlessness of 24/7 care is a very sad reality.

@GrumpiestOldWoman Most people do not go into care homes. Most middle class and better off working class families will inherit. There does still need to be state funding for those who won't. 20% of elderly people do not own their own home.

A couple of days ago the Home Secretary was on about getting the economically inactive back to work. That can't be squared with providing care for older relatives.
Things have changed significantly. More women work and families are smaller and more dispersed. My great, great grandparents had children and grandchildren (lots of both) living in the same small valleys community. The men earned the money and the women shared the care of the old people to keep them in their council house. Nobody had to shoulder the care alone. Nobody had to move.

@airbags I am sorry he has had to be moved 4 times, But it just shows that it was unrealistic to expect you to be able to cope with him at home.

I agree that the Government wants everyone to work, but is not willing to be realistic about what that policy means. I know even 25 years ago there were more middle aged women about who had been housewives, and were often key volunteers in their local community to keep many local volunteer services running.

will we end up with scenes from the walking dead, hoards of demented elderly people roaming abandoned cities??