To think families are going to have to look after their own old people?

[ElderAve]

It's not a judgement, the idea fills me with dread but how else are we supposed to pay for it? In a world where:

• It's political suicide to suggest that people who have valuable homes, they are no longer living in should use that value to pay for care.
• Everyone should be paid a proper living wage.
• We have increasing numbers of people needing care.

For example, between DH and I we have 4 elderly parents, still very much fit and well, but realistically, that can't carry on forever. Those parents have 4 working offspring.

I don't know how many residents a care home worker can care for but let's say it's 12, which to provide 24hr care means 3 shifts, so the equivalent of 1 full person to care for our 4 parents. That means that the state needs to raise tax equivalent to 1 (living wage) salary from the four of us and that's before paying for schools, hospitals etc.

Obviously not everyone has elderly parents needing care but those will often be heavy users of the schools system and we still need to pay for all the other services.

I just can't see how the state can do it, if they keep promising not to take the elderly's homes, which is so emotive.

The problem is medical science has moved on so much were keeping people alive for many many years past their natural lifespan with multiple co-morbidities which costs health a social care more than can be afforded.

It's all very well saying your family will "look after you rather than a home", generally people do not move into residential/nursing care until their needs are so great they need 24hour supervision. Most people don't have the family set up to supervise someone 24/7 whilst also meeting their other roles and responsibilities. Not to mention the physical demands as it often needs physical assistance of two people for safe moving and handling.

Lots of older people are over housed, either privately or in council housing and forced downsizing would help the funding gap - but that would be political suicide.

I don't know what the answer is, but it's only going to get worse

This is it, women have been made to go to work to afford a place to live and put food on the table etc etc now they have the pressure of caring for relatives living longer too!
They are ( rightly) challenging this and unable to do it! Plus it's ok if you have a big house or mansion with room for their things : maybe a wheelchair or hoist , but most people don't. They need a fair amount of equipment.
It is hard and a real dilemma for people.
I don't want to live forever. I really don't.

I 100% would sign a euthanasia consent form for if I got dementia, or a disease so bad I was suffering more than I wasn't.

Both my parents mums have suffered it, one currently still alive (keeps forgetting her husband has died and having to hear it again every day) and it's just been an all round hellish nightmare of stress, anxiety and tears. I don't want my boys to go through that with me.

I work in a care home which costs approx £1100 a week.

You can get a private room in a Canadian care home for less than £2000 (just went through it with an elderly relative). There is something wrong here.

*less than £2000/month.

AllPointsNorth, to be clear, I'n not saying, at all, that it would be a good thing to have families (male or female) doing the care, I just don't know how the state can pay for it.

What does your mother's care cost and how is it paid for?

Relative had life changing illnesses
Their home became inpractical for them to remain & they needed 24x7x365 nursing care
Went into a nursing home (new build, warm, light, nice people, comfortable, but still not their own home)
They were not expected to live very long
They lived 10 years
The property & pension paid for their care

Modern medicine keeps people alive now, when generations ago they would have died earlier

Not everyone gets sick or elderly

How can the younger generation provide 24x7x365 care ?

Families don't always live in the same location

Some people don't have families or children

I think it's truly sad and selfish that most families don't look after their elderly relatives. I can understand someone who was abused not wanting to, but most of us aren't in that situation. It is unsustainable for the 'state' to do it on our behalf.

Those saying that there is no way they would live with advanced dementia and would rather be euthanised I suspect have not fully thought this through. My father has dementia. He is at quite an advanced stage now but until recently he was still able to enjoy spending time with his grandkids, interacting with all of us, watching football. There is NO WAY he would have been able to bring himself to end his life at the point when he still had capacity to make that decision himself. When he still had capacity he still had a very reasonable quality of life. Fair play to those with the courage to do that but the actual numbers of people with dementia who do top themselves at an early stage reflects the reality of how terrifying and difficult that actually is.

it would appear that lots of us have preemptively estranged ourselves from our parents!

Lovely idea but in reality it just doesn't work
My mum has dementia at 73 and requires carers to get her dressed, do her self care, medication and feed her so 4 carer visits a day, she lives 300 miles from me and has no connections to where I live but a few very good connections to where she lives
Moving her would most probably cause a huge deterioration in her mental state
We have jobs, a business and kids in schools here and my own healthcare (I have a disability) so cannot move to her
My siblings are also in different places from her and have similar issues with jobs & families & ILs
My ILs are up here, closer but still 70miles away
How do we care for mum and my ILs?
We have to pay for care and even then we still spend a significant amount of time every week sorting out 'care' from afar (ordering food, paying bills, organising healthcare, cleaners, maintenance)
I had a terrible relationship with my mum and always said I would never have anything to do with her care as she was an awful mum to me however I took the high road as dementia is shit and her health rapidly declined from functioning to almost non functioning in 3yrs

For some people, depending on what type of illness/illnesses they have
Staying in their own home, is not always the best or safest solution or staying with family

To those saying it’s selfish not to care for your own family I would suspect have little experience of caring for someone with advanced dementia. And let’s face it it is usually women in middle and old age doing this. Social care in this country is a disgrace. And the repeated failure of governments to implement the perfectly reasonable and pragmatic fair solution in the Dilnot report is a scandal

It's so sad that my dad still thinks my mum is alive and doesn't want him! It was a huge loss for my dad when she died ten years ago and now he doesn't remember this at all.
He gets angry and aggressive and you end up having the same conversation with him every single time. His short term memory is also really bad. You could see him in the morning and by the afternoon he has forgotten you went there at all.
Dementia is a cruel disease : so is cancer but the two are treated so differently.
I can't see the current government sorting out adult social care. It's not even on their radar it seems! So many people I know have these worries. It is draining and the system is so hard to navigate too. It's made deliberately hard I think to confuse people!

To those saying it’s selfish not to care for your own family I would suspect have little experience of caring for someone with advanced dementia

Yep- they have no clue. Most people cant afford to give up their job, move in and offer 24/7 care for a relative. Who pays the bills without a job? what about their own marriage and kids? what if the relative is getting them up 15 times a night (quite common with dementia)

What about all those millions of older people who don't own a property? Who do you suggest pays for their care?

I won’t be looking after my parents when they’re old, I’m not the right sort of person to do that, I’m not patient, I’ve got a bad back so I can’t do any heavy lifting and I don’t have the space, never mind that I have to work to pay the bills.

I think a voluntary insurance payment is the way forward, if you don’t pay in then your house is sold to pay your costs, if you do pay in then you can leave your house to your heirs.

The dilnot report recommended a cap on the cost of social care. I think it recommended £30000 but a government could set it higher if they wished. Anyone with care fees higher than this (a small minority) would have the bill picked up by the state. The idea of this system would be that with the state picking up the risk insurance companies would step in and offer insurance to cover costs up to the cap. People could choose to take out insurance, save up or risk losing their house. I feel like this is fair and eminently workable

You do know most people who work with people with dementia have very little or no specific dementia training? All those saying they are not trained to support people with dementia are missing the point.
The reason most people with dementia end up in a home eventually is because when they lose day/night awareness, you end up woken up multiple times a night and during the day. This is hard enough with a newborn, but with a fully grown adult who may be stronger than you and very confused, it is almost impossible to manage alone.

Most people do not go into care homes. Most people do end up having carers coming into their home providing basic care. Lots are self funded. It is very expensive to get good carers.

The reason most people with dementia end up in a home eventually is because when they lose day/night awareness, you end up woken up multiple times a night and during the day. This is hard enough with a newborn, but with a fully grown adult who may be stronger than you and very confused, it is almost impossible to manage alone

yes, and yet people are still being called "selfish" for feeling they cant cope with this. Really really wrong.

I was a paid carer when I was younger and have helped elderly relatives out. My parents are dead. But I suspect by the time my PIL's need real care I will no longer be fit or able enough to provide it.
I will of course along with DP look out for them and help them. That is what decent families do.

My dad used to say he'd rather be dead and I could see his point of view!
It's a complex subject plus euthanasia isn't without pitfalls too. No easy answers to any of this. Something needs to change though.

ElderAve It’s around £43,000 a year and she sold her house before moving in. She’s with others who are state-funded and sees no difference with supporting them than she did when she was working and supporting the unemployed, disabled and the rest through taxes.

Absolutely these points re night time waking in dementia. All the hard bits of a newborn baby with none of the joy. Totally incompatible with trying to hold down a job or even any kind of normal life. People with dementia can also be a risk to themselves and their carer in the home. Psychological symptoms including aggressive behaviour, damaging property, trying to leave the house even when they are totally unsafe to do so mean that it is simply not safe for some people with dementia to stay in their own home

She's not supporting them though, unless she's still paying a lot of tax. She's simply paying for her own care/living expenses.