To think families are going to have to look after their own old people?

[ElderAve]

It's not a judgement, the idea fills me with dread but how else are we supposed to pay for it? In a world where:

• It's political suicide to suggest that people who have valuable homes, they are no longer living in should use that value to pay for care.
• Everyone should be paid a proper living wage.
• We have increasing numbers of people needing care.

For example, between DH and I we have 4 elderly parents, still very much fit and well, but realistically, that can't carry on forever. Those parents have 4 working offspring.

I don't know how many residents a care home worker can care for but let's say it's 12, which to provide 24hr care means 3 shifts, so the equivalent of 1 full person to care for our 4 parents. That means that the state needs to raise tax equivalent to 1 (living wage) salary from the four of us and that's before paying for schools, hospitals etc.

Obviously not everyone has elderly parents needing care but those will often be heavy users of the schools system and we still need to pay for all the other services.

I just can't see how the state can do it, if they keep promising not to take the elderly's homes, which is so emotive.

As people like me have been kept alive, we live longer into old age, but usually need much more medical care to do so.

There was a statistic that 90% of healthcare needed by people is in the last months of their lives. Certainly I'd be surprised if the 80/20 rule didn't seem a close fit.

The issues around inheritance are both moral and practical.

There is nothing for me to inherit from my living parents except personal effects and whatever may be in their coffers when they pass. It was never going to be any different - life has been a series of financial swings and roundabouts across the board and I'm just thankful that they have roofs over their heads and can heat and eat at this point in their lives. My DP's inheritance is being gobbled up by care home fees which his DM would be incandescent about as all the work she put in to leave him a little something has been scuppered by dementia. It is what it is, no point in getting resentful.

However, in this country we have been taught that the route to social equality is work hard and invest in property, so that families can improve their lot, and part of this has been the handing down of assets after one generation dies. As other PPs have pointed out, some families will now be stuck or find their circumstances going backwards because the bar for assets is pretty low. If you get down to the 26000 threshold, and apply for funding, it is still means tested and the LA will only pay a tapered amount until I think (it's a while since I checked) only around 6000 is left - then full funding comes into force. 6000 is probably enough to pay for a funeral and settle an estate so can hardly count as a windfall for the recipient. We are seeing a steady decline in all the structures and systems that used to allow people to improve their lot via hard work and due diligence, and it seems to be getting harder and harder - no amount of positive thinking and personal responsibility can overcome the cold hard facts of redundancy in late middle age, a difficulty in getting another job and the increasing cost of day to day living - just one sort of scenario but there are many variants affecting all age groups.

There must be a better solution to this situation than the lottery of cause of demise - and it does seem that a relatively small number of families are being adversely affected by the attitude that dementia requires social care rather than it being regarded as a medical issue. If someone cannot live without 24 hour supervision and practical care, how is that different from a stroke victim or cancer patient? I understand that dementia patients can live longer than those with other illnesses but agree with others that the rush to prolong physical life while all quality is gone for the person in question is a cruel and unusual torture for all involved.

@IrmaFayLear you're jealous of your friends who's parents have died?

I never understand posts like this. Everyone's parents die. Everyone dies! Obviously if one's parents die relatively young (hands up me!) that is not great (understatement) but if my friend's parents were 90 years old, surely that's just life, and it is human nature to think, Pah! Her parents died swift deaths from heart attacks, whilst both in their own home, unlike the pil who had horrid drawn-out miserable ends and left £0 into the bargain.

If the time comes when I get dementia and I know it’s likely, I have informed my family to feel no guilt about moving me to residential care, or better still Dignitas.

And again, you cannot go to Dignitas once your dementia has advanced to the point where you are no longer compos mentis, so if you are at the point of needing residential care, then Dignitas will not take you. It is also expensive and if you are unable to travel there alone, your relatives can be prosecuted under the Suicide Act of 1961. If you get a dementia diagnosis and still have some faculty about you, you will need to complete suicide off your own steam very quickly, before you're unable to do it.

Because assisted dying is illegal in this country and advanced directives aside from those covering people with terminal conditions are not common practice and in some cases not honoured.

If you care about your right to die on your own terms, effectively (because ending your life here without the means of drugs such as pentobarbital can be a crap shoot and if not successful can leave you in that vegetative state you want to avoid), then step up now and start campaigning for dying with dignity and the legal right to assisted dying.

If you are over 50 you can also join Exit International.

Bodily autonomy should be sacrosanct and extend to all areas of the human condition - reproduction, treatment of medical conditions and death.

I suppose with a stroke victim or cancer patients there is an expectation of recovery perhaps a better analogy he would be someone who who falls into a coma from which they are not expected to recover, what happens in these situations do they have to sell their home to pay for care to keep their body alive?

Quite agree, OldQueen69. Our appearance in the middle class will be a one generation event.

I cared for mine, but they didn't need much. I'm so glad I did, there's no way I'd have had others looking after them and I don't care who tells me of the wonderful people who care. I've seen and heard of the many who don't.

@IrmaFayLear you're jealous of your friends who's parents have died?

Irma I agree with your response to this statement. It is the natural order for parents to die before their children. Believe me, it is much better than the other way round.

My FIL died age 72 after pneumonia (he had a number of other health conditions already, no dementia, and developed a superbug in hospital) after about a week in patient.

By contrast, her best friend's husband is 80 and now in a stage of advanced dementia. The toll on the family is unbelievable. She is too old to meet his needs. Their eldest child, age 62, had a stroke from the stress of trying to care for his father and still work FT. Their adult grandchildren have all had to move away due to high house prices. And MIL herself says she is very glad her husband died so quickly and peacefully without developing dementia. Her husband of over 50 years, that is how bad many with advanced dementia become.

It's not like years of care home level dementia is a particularly painless or pleasant exit either. I imagine many people would be happy to inherit nothing if it meant their loved ones could die quickly of heart attacks at home aged 90: that sounds like one of the better ways to go.

Realistically I don’t think that state funded care will be available to anyone beyond gen x. Even with a stupid amount of QE the shit will hit the fan if the government continues to spend as it does (which it would seem it intends to given what we’re currently seeing on both sides of the political spectrum). Everyone but the most entitled of my contemporaries (millennial) have accepted that we’re going to have to pay our own way in our retirement and are desperately trying to accumulate enough in assets to have an ok life and not burden our children despite paying huge amounts of tax to fund older, less responsible generations, and paying for things like healthcare and education out of pocket and dealing with over inflated housing costs. It’s just not realistic or fair to expect taxpayers to pay for almost everything from cradle to grave.

Yes, I worry about my children. They’re in their early twenties. We have tried to help them as much as we possibly can but just don’t know how much we might need for our own later years if we need nursing care.

In some ways an insurance policy would at least allow some more accurate budgeting and allocation of assets.

I think part of the problem with dementia related conditions is that quite naturally people try to frame them with an element of hope and optimism. The early stages can indeed be managed and the sufferer can have a reasonable quality of life with the right support.

My MIL has effectively "left the room". She doesn't recognise us, resents too much personal input, fights intimate care, and just sits, being fed and hydrated to minimise her physical suffering. That is all. Still well meaning friends will suggest playing her favourite music, looking at pictures (which she cannot focus on due to changes in her visual perception), and all manner of things which have allegedly worked for people putting up positive stories about relatives who, given just the right amount of input and attention can still dash off classical pieces on the piano etc....... these are rare cases or often clickbait I think. I have been told but it's worth TRYING. A caring relative will have tried EVERYTHING and the implication that they are failing their relative because they haven't found the magical solution to improve the quality of life and avoid the necessity of round the clock basic care is exceptionally demoralising.

Of course I accept that people who haven't lived with the condition in a relative are just trying to be kind and supportive but I do get the occasional urge to just scream "Don't you get it ? J has left the building and no amount of Joni Mitchell will bring her back - it doesn't even register!" But I don't. I am grateful for their care and thought, and wish with all my heart it could be different and better for J, a sweet kind woman who did not deserve this in the slightest (not that anyone does but I'm sure you get my drift.)

@OldQueen1969 that’s down to financial illiteracy and selfishness though. If people put their efforts and capital into giving back to society by creating products that people benefit from within the structure of a well managed business they are much more likely to find financial security and stable assets. Instead people selfishly choose to sell their time for what they perceive to be a reliable wage (which as you’ve pointed out is a fallacy) and have put their money into housing then played the political system to artificially inflate the value all the while demanding that the government pays for more and more of their living costs. People like that are getting no less than what they deserve. You can’t abdicate all financial or social responsibility and expect to get away with it.

If people put their efforts and capital into giving back to society by creating products that people benefit from within the structure of a well managed business they are much more likely to find financial security and stable assets. Instead people selfishly choose to sell their time for what they perceive to be a reliable wage (which as you’ve pointed out is a fallacy) and have put their money into housing then played the political system to artificially inflate the value all the while demanding that the government pays for more and more of their living costs. People like that are getting no less than what they deserve.

Sorry? If we all owned businesses, who would be employed to work in them?

Selling your time for a wage is selfish? Even when you're a doctor?

This is batshit.

Of course there will continue to be state funded care. Otherwise what happens to those with no one to look after them and no money? Do they just die at home of starvation because they cannot feed themselves?
Yes in third world countries this may happen, but would that really be okay here?

@Reginabambina

I'm sorry I'm a bit baffled by your post? People worked with a system that was created by the government and did as they were advised especially from the Thatcher era onwards - they believed they were taking financial and social responsibility by buying property and paying tax and NI. Without being an expert in wider economics how could one know this wasn't sustainable, when the markets can be controlled and massaged by those with the far greater financial and political power to manipulate things to their advantage? The man in the street has largely done his best in the system provided, if the state offered rug is then pulled out from under him was he wrong to believe it was there in the first place?

OldQueen, It's word salad 🙄 word salad is always baffling🙄

Jeremy Corbyn is among us.

A private pension income will alleviate things somewhat, that with your state pension will pay some of the costs but at over 1k a week other things have to go, their home will get swallowed up. Hoping for an inheritance is a vain hope.

Realistically I don’t think that state funded care will be available to anyone beyond gen x

That's totally realistic even for GenX. There will be nothing from the state for us (I am 50). No pension or retirement, no state funded care at all, not just for dementia. We've been sold a Ponzi scheme.

@UYScuti

Thanks lol! My brain isn't working terribly well at the best of times at the moment so it's reassuring to know I'm not totally losing the capacity to reason.....

Shall not have to google is Alzheimers contagious now ....... (sorry if joke in poor taste - gallows humour is my safety zone)

@datasgingercatspot There is state funded care the NHS and the state pension. People with more money will have to pay into their care, those without will not. We all end up in the same nursing home.

I’m intrigued to know if the OP knows just what looking after a parent with dementia entails. Being spat at, pushed, called a cunt. Having to constantly manage and firefight sudden pointless anxieties. Being accused of only being after their money, whilst draining your own finances. Giving up any hope of a normal family life. It feels just like being bullied.

I think we will see increasing numbers of adult children just refusing to get involved because they will have seen the devastation wreaked in the lives of others

In 20 years, just, reality is going to look very different and I'm pretty sure there won't be any more state-funded much of anything. The writing is on the wall, the dementia has already been turned into 'social' care and privatised by stealth and no one is doing anything about it; in fact, they are voting Tory in record numbers and will continue to do so whilst any opposition is arguing about how people with penises are women and biological sex does not exist. Tories want the small state, but they already have too high costs of living and taxes compared with other nations that have small state. So they can't raise taxes any more. So they will cut and cut and privatise and privatise. 'It will happen, whoever grudges it'. I am under no delusions that all the NI I pay is effectively a tax. There will be nothing to draw on if I live to 70 (which the pension age will be if not higher by the time the likes of me get there).