To think families are going to have to look after their own old people?

[ElderAve]

It's not a judgement, the idea fills me with dread but how else are we supposed to pay for it? In a world where:

• It's political suicide to suggest that people who have valuable homes, they are no longer living in should use that value to pay for care.
• Everyone should be paid a proper living wage.
• We have increasing numbers of people needing care.

For example, between DH and I we have 4 elderly parents, still very much fit and well, but realistically, that can't carry on forever. Those parents have 4 working offspring.

I don't know how many residents a care home worker can care for but let's say it's 12, which to provide 24hr care means 3 shifts, so the equivalent of 1 full person to care for our 4 parents. That means that the state needs to raise tax equivalent to 1 (living wage) salary from the four of us and that's before paying for schools, hospitals etc.

Obviously not everyone has elderly parents needing care but those will often be heavy users of the schools system and we still need to pay for all the other services.

I just can't see how the state can do it, if they keep promising not to take the elderly's homes, which is so emotive.

Of course there will be a state pension and state care. Seriously do you want old people to just die of starvation?
Even with pensions the average private pension is about £4k. Enough to top up the state pension, but not to live on.

Sadly, if you are serious about ending your life before your disease progresses, then you have to do it long before you are 'ready' to die.

This is my issue. It's been known to family for a bit now that in the event I'm diagnosed with a neurodegenerative condition, motor neurone disease, and others where my mental faculties will reduce then I shall look to suicide, even have planned how, but when is the hurdle I cannot jump. Offing myself upon diagnosis could deprive me 30 years solid life, or give me swift relief from a rapid decline.

I assume those talking about no state pension are well off? A lot of people already only survive because of benefits.
And if state pension became means tested, I would spend all my savings. Bugger that.

If the time comes when I get dementia and I know it’s likely, I have informed my family to feel no guilt about moving me to residential care, or better still Dignitas.

And do you have the 50 grand a year to pay for the residential care? Or are you happy to be reliant on the cheaper homes at the lower end of the market with over-stretched underpaid staff with a high turnover and poorer Care Quality Commission reports?

You have to have full mental capacity to go to Dignitas.

I think we will see increasing numbers of adult children just refusing to get involved because they will have seen the devastation wreaked in the lives of others

And because they simply can't. What are they supposed to live on? And where? As Helena pointed out, people were told to get on their bikes and move for work or they were lazy, shiftless, feckless losers. So they did. And this meant a great many of them moved from where they were born and brought up or even the entire country altogether. Lack of investment in industry means no jobs every came back to many areas.

So now you have a good many of those adults, who are around my age, those children of Thatcherism, in their 50s, who have jobs, mortgages, spouses with jobs and children in school or whom they are supporting at uni or with housing. The cost of housing rose exponentially, so they don't have room for the relative to move in. They can't leave their jobs as then their pension will be in jeopardy, their spouse can't leave his/her job for similar reasons. They must both work FT.

How are they, or more tellingly, women, supposed to provide more and more care for an elderly relative, particularly when it's a condition like dementia which can last for decades, no concrete end date?

Yes my parents are dead, but DP moved soon after graduation because there was little work where he grew up. So his parents are 6-hours drive away.

Welcome to my world. D Dad passed away in care home nearly 3 years ago - Mum (quite selfishly in our opinion) would NOT let him go into a care home despite his advanced Dementia, and he was only actually in the home for 5 weeks before his death. Prior to this we had 2 years of living hell, trying to sort out the constant issues caused by his condition and his changed relationship with Mum, who refused all help until a crisis occurred. Towards the end it was almost tantamount to abuse (as Mum would not accept his condition and would accuse him of 'putting it on').
Now Mum is in a care home, after a very stressful 6 months last year, as, due to continued ill health, she is unable to remain in her own home (she is self funding), and we are about to put the family home on the market - which is right IMO.
Just like the previous poster my DH has maintained all along that he is glad his parents went swiftly (aged 59 and 72), without any of the nightmare we (my siblings and I) have endured in the last 5 years. Caring for elderly relatives at home is a wonderful thing to do if the relatives conditions aren't too demanding and they can be reasonably accommodated, but it is not suitable in all situations.

It is slightly alarming to think that if there is a significant correction in the housing market, this current model of house value to cover care costs will vanish. It creates a situation that it's in the Treasury's interest that in the affluent areas, which are also the areas with the greatest longevity, house values stay high.

There's another potential rival for the equity in older people's houses, and that's releasing equity as a top-up to pensions. As people live longer (I know current middle aged people might die sooner as they are less healthy than the previous generation, but those who are in early old age right now), and find their pensions aren't going to cover bigger costs that might come along 30 years after retiring - new roofs, boilers etc, people may release more equity in their homes to pay for these things. Lots of people who are middle aged already but can't afford pension payments say, "my home is my pension pot".

There's a lot relying on house price staying high! Building sufficient new houses is not really in the government's interest in this matter.

There's a lot relying on house price staying high! Building sufficient new houses is not really in the government's interest in this matter.

Now that's a clang I heard around the world ...

And if the death of the baby-boom bulge generation means a lot of houses being released onto the market, the less attractive mass-built efforts being constructed today aren't going to look very appealing.

And if the death of the baby-boom bulge generation means a lot of houses being released onto the market, the less attractive mass-built efforts being constructed today aren't going to look very appealing.

Don't worry, there'll be plenty of immigration to soak up any capacity. No danger of under occupation anytime soon.

Welcome to my world. D Dad passed away in care home nearly 3 years ago - Mum (quite selfishly in our opinion) would NOT let him go into a care home despite his advanced Dementia, and he was only actually in the home for 5 weeks before his death. Prior to this we had 2 years of living hell, trying to sort out the constant issues caused by his condition and his changed relationship with Mum, who refused all help until a crisis occurred. Towards the end it was almost tantamount to abuse (as Mum would not accept his condition and would accuse him of 'putting it on').

With my aunt, we all bust several guts trying to keep her in her home miles away from any of her family, because she said that was what she wanted. But when she moved into a home she near everyone, she has been much happier.

It made me rethink the received wisdom that people should stay in their homes as long as they can.

All this talk of baby boomers dying, you do know that some are still in their 50's.
i think it's a simple fact you either look after the old and infirm relatives yourselves or lose an inheritance.
My parents didn't need a care home, but we spoke about it with them, years before.
Their house was signed over to us about 20 years ago, they have been gone 12 years now.
If we had had to decide between care home and inheritance we'd have chosen to care ourselves and keep inheritance.
We were thatcher's children who moved away, but when my parents got older we moved back, with children it's the least you can do. I'm sure I impacted on their lives with shitty nappies and them raising me. It's just your turn to care for them.

For many of us, 'moving back' is not a possibility - there is no 'back' to return to. Many of our generation's parents themselves moved on while in early old age, before their needs developed. I lived in Devon for 5 years, where there are many retirees who, as they age, have growing needs, but it's not possible for their 40-60 something children to relocate to where they now are.

I grew up in a London suburb; most of my friends' parents were not from London either. Many, like my own mother, left London in retirement. I could not afford to live in the SE rural area my mother moved to, even if I wanted to. And it's also nowhere near exH's parents, so it just wouldn't be possible, because of our DS.

"It's just your turn to care for them". What an a strange attitude. Having Dc is a choice. You don't have them just so they can care for you in older age. You raise them to leave, have their own families, travel and live their own lives. I can't understand the mentality of any parent who would curtail and often very negatively impact their DC's life experiences and mental health by allowing them to take on an indefinite caring role. It's the ultimate in selfishness.
And many years as a district nurse which took me into many care homes, showed me that older people struggling on at home, falling about all over the place, refusing to pay for care and clogging up A+E is absolutely not always the best choice.

Devlesko spoken (written) like someone who's picketed a fat inheritance without having to actually do any care, and knowing this will never actually be demanded of them.

If X had happened, which it didn't and can't now, I'd definitely have done Y, therefore I am morally righteous.

No-one who hasn’t actually done care has any idea how hard it is.

It can break health and break marriages.

I know I couldn't care for my dad as he is now. His conversation is on a loop and the anxiety he has is through the roof. Very demanding and big mood swings. Sometimes he wants to rant and sometimes he just ignores me. He gets frequent water infections that make things worse as well.
His not as bad as some in his home and not as good as some others. I have nowhere to put him in my small home and the strain on the other members of my family would be huge too. It's not nice knowing he'll end his days there as he isn't keen on it, but we'd run out of options over time ( it's been going on for years prior to this with a constant stream of hospitals , wandering off and falls)
It is hard and I would t wish this on my worst enemy to go through it all. Sometimes you feel like the only one , but I know that's silly.
No inheritance here for me or dh either as our parents didn't own properties.
His self funding till the savings run out etc.
It's no fun getting older! I am actually dreading getting old. I really am.

Yes, why are people for whom this is hypothetical wading in to regale us with stories of what they'd do in situations they've no experience of?

Yes, why are people for whom this is hypothetical wading in to regale us with stories of what they'd do in situations they've no experience of?

because MN is a subset of real life ?

I’m not sure that it is that hidden - certainly not if you have elderly parents. My aunt and father have dementia (my father being 5 years younger than my aunt, is in a much milder stage). A old friend of my mother’s has severe dementia.

It’s a common illness in the 80+ bracket.

I probably worded it badly when I said it was hidden. I'm trying to think of the right word. Out of sight and out of mind? My aunt developed it fairly young and lived for almost 20 years like that and it was horrific. She cried and begged for her baby brother, my father, who was about 70 himself by this time. And she completely rejected all her own family, because my father was the only person whose name she recognised, although she couldn't understand how the baby had grown so old.

But on the other hand, my parents both made it to their 80s with minds that were clear, and actually all their friends did too. I don't actually know very many people who have suffered from dementia although I do know a lot of people who have lived to their 80s and 90s. I knew it existed, I knew it wasn't unusual but until the previous poster posted that statistic, I didn't know how common.

True, dgrossetti! Plenty of stupid here, as elsewhere.

I probably worded it badly when I said it was hidden. I'm trying to think of the right word. Out of sight and out of mind?

More than once, DW has met (older) people who have commented how odd it seems that so many people are unable to walk these days. After all, going back you hardly ever saw anyone in a wheelchair out and about ....

95 per cent of the NHS budget goes on the old as it is

No, it doesn’t.

fullfact.org/health/how-much-nhs-budget-spent-people-over-85/

My DM was pretty with it until a disastrous fall on June 5 2018. Nov 1 2018 she died, with raging dementia - brought on we are told by shock and her fear/horror of being in hospital, having to go into a care home. We tried, believe me we tried, to look after her at home, I think in those 5 months she maybe had 5 nights of being at home before she'd fall over again and repeat the process. As she became more demented it became worse and worse. Truly the worst experience fo my life (not her death, that was a relief, the 5 months leading up to it).