To think families are going to have to look after their own old people?

[ElderAve]

It's not a judgement, the idea fills me with dread but how else are we supposed to pay for it? In a world where:

• It's political suicide to suggest that people who have valuable homes, they are no longer living in should use that value to pay for care.
• Everyone should be paid a proper living wage.
• We have increasing numbers of people needing care.

For example, between DH and I we have 4 elderly parents, still very much fit and well, but realistically, that can't carry on forever. Those parents have 4 working offspring.

I don't know how many residents a care home worker can care for but let's say it's 12, which to provide 24hr care means 3 shifts, so the equivalent of 1 full person to care for our 4 parents. That means that the state needs to raise tax equivalent to 1 (living wage) salary from the four of us and that's before paying for schools, hospitals etc.

Obviously not everyone has elderly parents needing care but those will often be heavy users of the schools system and we still need to pay for all the other services.

I just can't see how the state can do it, if they keep promising not to take the elderly's homes, which is so emotive.

It’s unpopular because often the house is ALL an elderly person has under the current system that forces people to burn through their savings, and the Council will lay claim on it even if the cost of care is substantially lower. For example someone could lose a 1m house for 500k care.

Exactly GrumpyHoonMain. And like I said, its quite possible house prices in the UK are in a bubble state. So a house is valued at 1M pounds. In government accounting, whether at the local or national level, that 1M is now recorded as an asset. The housing market corrects. Problem is, that 1M has already been spent...

@MarchDaffs that is effectively the situation we have, if you are in,icky enough to get dementia, governments are being cowardly and hypocritical by not ad mitting that is the current situation, and by not taking measures to address it. In the US many are against free, tax funded healthcare because they reckon people should pay for it, or have in work health insurance. That seems selfish and incomprehensible to most brits. But I think there are similarities with our situation here with respect to funding elderly/ dementia care. Which is to just hope you don’t get it, and let those unfortunates who do sort themselves out.

Grandmothers home is broken down in to 6 areas, with 12 residents per area. So 72 residents, generally 2 staff per area, so 12 carers plus a cook, a receptionist and an on duty manager. They try to have a floating member of staff but quite often there isn’t one. So 12 residents, some of whom are quite difficult, some have mobility issues nd need two carers to do anything, some get quite irate quite often, majority need help with basic care like toileting, dressing and eating. It’s no wonder they struggle to recruit!

When it became apparent that we would need to source 24hour care, we did think about trying to ‘do it ourselves’ but it would be far too much for one person on their own (partly becasue mum and her sibling both work, as do all the grandchildren). DGM is up most of the night, wandering About and despite her intense curiosity over stairs, she can’t manage them, so living in a house was a complete no-no. We would need at least three of us to cover a 24 hour period, just like the home do. Plus those people would need holidays/time off for appointments etc. For our family it just wasn’t feasible.

Living in a retirement area our council funding care, 9.7 percent in rates last year, looking at another 7 percent this year. It really is breaking our council financially

Increase in rates.

For those who are saying "if you want to keep your inheritance, look after your aged parents yourself" - a quick read of the "elderly parents" board shows that those who have elderly parents in a home have usually spent years doing just that, often to the detriment of their own health and the welfare of their children.

I absolutely agree that dementia care has been privatised by stealth. I would suspect that 90% of the people suggesting - a) families should do more care and b) of course people should sell their home to pay for care - how else is it going to be funded - have not been personally touched by this cruel disease. Euthanasia is neither here nor there. That should never be forced on people by financial circumstances and frankly until the funding of care is sorted it would dangerous to think of legalising it as I suspect we would see large numbers of people taking that option even when they didn’t want to to save care costs.
Alzheimer’s is a medical disease - to arbitrarily force people with it to pay for their care when we don’t do this for cancer, diabetes, renal disease etc etc is discriminatory, and grossly unfair
There also seems to some kind of idea prevailing that it’s a bit grubby and grabby to want to inherit. Surely it is the most natural thing in the world to want to pass on what you can to your children. There can be all sorts of reasons why people might be banking on an inheritance for their own security - my own mother who as I have said on this thread is a double carer including for my dad with dementia is a “WASPI” who has either not worked or only worked in low paid part time jobs all her life so she could stay at home and raise her family is now getting screwed over on her pension. She is banking on her inheritance to give her a modest standard of living in her old age.
What of someone who hasn’t worked because they have health problems or live in an expensive part of the country - their inheritance may be their own chance to ever get on the property ladder. It is the utmost privilege to be able to say I don’t need that money - spend it on your care to your parents.

Dementia has started to become more common at younger ages and it is linked to obesity and diabetes. So the care home users of the future may well be in their forties / fifties / sixties; and from generations that haven’t been able to buy a house (it’s far more common amongst the poor and uneducated than than rich and educated). What will the government do then?

Taxes have to go up. It’s as simple as that. I need a political party to be honest about this but they probably won’t when you consider we already pay more tax (when you total everything up) than Scandinavia but have a fraction of their social services. The UK has been bled dry by the Tories

The council doesn't keep more than the cost of your care.

"The council doesn't keep more than the cost of your care."

I would fully expect the cost of the care to increase to match the book price of the house.

Why would you expect that?
There is a per week cost and it is itemised. You have time to sell.
Sure, eventually the money runs out then the council take over and continue paying for the care.

Why aren't the government offering tax breaks against insurance paid during a working life for care in old age? Very much like pension contributions, & if the insurance is not needed then some of the money passed on to family as a legacy.

Nursing homes charge privately funded patients more than local-authority funded, too.

So, sell your house and we'll spend some of the proceeds paying for John in the next bed who never bought a house or saved, for understandable or not reasons.

I agree something needs to be done about funding, though. And obviously if you're in a home you can't be living in your old house at the same time.

It's the utmost privilege to be able to say I don't need that money spend it on your care
I agree with what you say however, the cost of being a carer for a parent may well be your own health and well-being, how to weigh that against the value of a potential inheritance?

We already pay more tax than Scandinavia
I didn't realise ☹️
how do we get to Scandinavia? 🤔

There are also residents in the home who are socially funded. They did not have a property to sell, so the council pick up the tab. How is that fair

Perhaps the care workers who care for your grandmother should look for better paid jobs and then quit the care one so that they dont have to be socially funded when they are older.

Honestly if i was a care worker and knew i was thought of like this by the relatives of the person i cared for id think nothing of quitting if found a better paid job even if it meant giving no notice.

Jaxhog Sun 23-Feb-20 18:28:45
I think it's truly sad and selfish that most families don't look after their elderly relatives. I can understand someone who was abused not wanting to, but most of us aren't in that situation. It is unsustainable for the 'state' to do it on our behalf.
.........

I get what you are saying, jax, but the thread seems to be talking mainly about dementia. Many people with dementia need round the clock care, preferably with more than one person caring, because they have severe mood changes, wander off, behave and speak in an inappropriate manner, don't sleep. No one family can cope with that unless they are so well off they can afford a team of staff, the sick person needs to be in specialised residential care.

All patients are different. A friend of mine's mother had Alzheimers - and it really was Alzheimers, she developed it in her sixties. She did not, however, wander off or behave violently, she just became more nervous and quiet and ended up being bedridden for many years. She was at home with her husband and carers came in quite a lot. Her situation was manageable.

Another friend's father used to go out at night and drive the car for miles, not knowing where he was going. That was dreadful. He certainly would have gone into a home but had a stroke and died before it was necessary which was a blessing.

My aunt became senile, she would go up the road in her nightdress and slippers and look for her late husband, didn't really know her family some of the time but she was pushing 90; she went into a home but died not long after - of cancer. Her daughter (my cousin) let her mother's home to fund her care.

Dementia is a special case and something we all dread even the thought of but not all people become demented, in fact most don't. There are other chronic sicknesses that necessitate care but often can be done at home with the help of carers - like my parents and grandma in law. They didn't have to sell their houses to fund it.

I'm quite happy to pay for medical care, if and when I need it, at home but I know it would be a different matter if I lost my reason and was a danger to myself or others. I just pray that will not happen. It's far more likely that I will become physically infirm due to some illness or other and that can hopefully be managed without me having to sell my house. I'd hate to have to do that and what happens if the house money runs out? I'll pay my way but giving up my home to fund care would be awful.

The idea that we can care for our elderly parents at our home or in their own home relies on:
-parents ageing without complex needs, they are still able to care for themselves, cook, shower, get dressed, take themselves to the toilet and remember to take their medications. In this scenario, they will eventually be admitted to hospital for a heart attack or pneumonia and slip away after a few weeks in hospital

• that children live near their families and haven’t had to move to get jobs
• that siblings share the load evenly
• that you’re only caring for 4 relatives, when actually parents may have split up and you could be caring for step-parents or even childless aunts/uncles/cousins
• that everyone has room in their house
• that everyone can stop work

To those that say it’s selfish for me and DH not to care for our parents. I live 200 miles away from my parents, who are divorced so I have 3 parents to care for. For a parent and step-parent, I have brothers. They might not move away but both their partners have moved away from their families, so there’s a possibility for movement plus they are at the beginning of their careers. DH has a very distant relationship with the parent who lives 20 miles away. His other two parents live in a separate country. His brother is a selfish prick and unlikely to do any care, although his partner’s family will also need care at some point too. His brother lives an hour and a half away from us and near to his in-laws. Our financial plans include us both working until retirement so that we can pay for our care. Should I give up work to care for any of those 6 parents? DH can’t, he earns more than I do. Which parent should I prioritise? All our parents are very close in age, with different illnesses on each side including heart disease, cancer and dementia. Who should get priority? Again, our parents are in 3 different locations. Realistically, I could quit my job and care for my 3 parents but that would likely mean the end of my marriage (as I’d be moving indefinitely 200 miles away) and an end to my financial stability. Do I move my parents away from their support networks as they age and being to them an area that they have never lived in so I can care for them? It still doesn’t address how we care for DH’s parents in a separate country. Even if we could afford a house big enough to house 6 parents, is my mother going to want to live with her ex-husband? Is my mother going to want to live with my in-laws?

Also, dementia is scary as fuck. It manifests itself in so many different ways, aggression, anxiety. People with dementia need specialist care, sometimes 24/7. We witnessed an older woman fall while out in town. We helped her up, checked she was ok and gave her a life home. She said she’d only popped out to the shops (she was in her slippers). We drove her around the corner, where she tried to get in to a house. Except this was her old house, she’s moved about 15 years prior. Fortunately, there was a neighbour who could give us her current address, which was on the other side of town. If she took the direct route, she’d have walked at least 5 miles in her slippers but with hindsight it’s probably a lot more. We got her back to her home. She had family, there were plenty of recent photos of school aged children and lots of group shots of people but they weren’t able to be there 24/7. The things is, this woman seemed lucid the entire time. She wasn’t giving us conflicting facts but she was still stuck in the timeline of 15-20 years previous. She was probably passing the ‘dementia’ tests. This is something that terrifies me about bringing my parents down to live with me. If they get out of the house, before I realise the dementia has gotten that bad, how the hell do I find them? This won’t be an area that they have memories of. They won’t have a support network here. There are no old neighbours nearby who can point strangers in the right direction. I think in that scenario, it is much better that they use their savings and property to fund their care, even if I am left with nothing. I would rather my parents be in a secure care home, paying for a good level of care that doesn’t necessarily come with the state provision and visit as frequently as I can. I think it would be selfish to move them away from their support system, to an unfamiliar environment, give them substandard care because I’m still working all so I can claim their inheritance.

You're totally right Cakeandgin, there's no way we can cope it's crazy I'm an onely child with health issues of my own there's no way I can provide care for my parents and and look after my own well-being and be supportive towards my adult children who am I supposed to prioritise?
Furthermore it is not feasible to impose a duty of care upon us towards our parents it's nothing like a parent caring for a child and we should not be encouraging people to see this as a reciprocal duty of care arrangement

Bring back workhouses for the poor I say. I mean why should they get care when they can’t afford it

"Nursing homes charge privately funded patients more than local-authority funded, too."

This is what I mean. Nursing houses will notice who is being funded by being able to sell their houses and will raise prices, while not raising the quality of service. This will be passed on to local government. It won't be blatant, but it will happen. But how fair is it that people should skimp and save to buy their own house, just so it can be sold off to provide for them in a state of minimal comfort in old age?

A PP has identified that dementia patients are actively discriminated against under the current system - it is not a "social disease" it is a medical condition with many complex issues attached and should not be considered as such.

Yes, but the real problem with it is that it doesn't kill you as fast as the other diseases and so far, advanced directives are not generally recognised. So any other medical problems are treated.

It's a sticky wicket.

CakeAndGin

Spot on.

I live 800 miles away from my parents in another state. I have siblings who live near them, but it wouldn’t be fair to make them do all of the care (and by “care” I’m talking about feeding, bathing, changing, and toileting if it comes to that). But I won’t quit my job (I’m still another 15 years or so from retirement) and leave my children and husband to move 800 miles away.

My mother has flat-out said that she doesn’t want any of us caring for her when she’s infirm, and I take that same stance for myself. My sons know this. In no way do I want them, or their wives if they’re married, taking care of my very personal needs. How humiliating for me. How unfair to them. I’ve worked all my life and am saving my money so they won’t feel compelled to reach into their own pockets and take money from their own families. They’ll have their own lives and stresses to worry about.

Caring for toddlers when you’re 32 is far different from caring for two adults when you’re 65 and possibly in failing health yourself. It’s not comparable at all.

CakeandGin: To those that say it’s selfish for me and DH not to care for our parents.
........
You're not selfish CakeandGin, you've explained your circumstances and it would be nigh on impossible for you to look after parents. For a start you live hundreds of miles away!

Nobody has the right to judge you, they aren't in your shoes.

People are still talking about dementia as if it is the only horrible illness that requires care. I would say it is the only one where residential care is essential, at least for most people.

Other illness can be managed at home with carers. My poor mother in law had Parkinson's disease; she did actually have quite a few things wrong with her but Parkinson's hit her hardest. She was also very deaf which made communication difficult for her with people who did not know her. We knew how to talk with her and she could understand us. I remember her being in hospital for short periods and, for her, it was like being imprisoned because she couldn't hear and nobody had the time to make themselves understood.

We vetted her carers and they were lovely (still in contact with one of them who is now retired), we also did a lot of personal care for her., sometimes together, sometimes singly Nobody likes the idea of their son or daughter in law changing their nappy and washing them but if it is done kindly and efficiently, they come to accept it eventually.

However it has to fit with your own lifestyle. We lived near mother in law for a start and she was nice, she was also quite intelligent and sensible. I can't remember how long the situation went on, three and a half years I think before she died and she was in her eighties. I know some people last a lot longer than that which is of course more of a problem for those caring.

Every case is different. We cannot judge others but we must stop talking as though everyone gets dementia! They don't. Thank goodness.