To think families are going to have to look after their own old people?

[ElderAve]

It's not a judgement, the idea fills me with dread but how else are we supposed to pay for it? In a world where:

• It's political suicide to suggest that people who have valuable homes, they are no longer living in should use that value to pay for care.
• Everyone should be paid a proper living wage.
• We have increasing numbers of people needing care.

For example, between DH and I we have 4 elderly parents, still very much fit and well, but realistically, that can't carry on forever. Those parents have 4 working offspring.

I don't know how many residents a care home worker can care for but let's say it's 12, which to provide 24hr care means 3 shifts, so the equivalent of 1 full person to care for our 4 parents. That means that the state needs to raise tax equivalent to 1 (living wage) salary from the four of us and that's before paying for schools, hospitals etc.

Obviously not everyone has elderly parents needing care but those will often be heavy users of the schools system and we still need to pay for all the other services.

I just can't see how the state can do it, if they keep promising not to take the elderly's homes, which is so emotive.

I have saved up money to go to Dignitas Does Dignitas deal with dementia? And does it allow you to arrive alone, or do you have to find a friend or relative willing to bear the consequences of accompanying you?

@isabellerossignol that previous thread sounds batshit tbh.

Oh, it definitely was! It stung a bit at the time I must admit, to be told how lazy I am. But I realise now that you can't reason with that sort of thinking, so there is no point trying.

As we have to now work u til we probably need care ourselves it would be very difficult to also provide the level of care needed. If you are in your 70s yourself you may not be in s position to care for anyone else.

I certainly don’t expect my children to put themselves under the stress of caring for us. We have made enormous sacrifices to be able to buy our home to leave to our children. I would prefer to go when I can no longer care for myself than throw away years of hard work. My house is for my children.

I can't afford it. I need to work fulltime or I don't get by. Emotionally I can't do it either. I already struggle to keep my own life together as it is. I don't know how I would survive taking care of sick parents. I wish I was exaggerating.

@isabellerossignol that thread sounds delightfully batshit. And the complete opposite of a more recent thread where I was told I should move away from the SE to a cheaper area where I don't need my wages topped up (and my entire support network) because I'm not irreplaceable at work. (Care home worker)

Does Dignitas deal with dementia?

No. If you are over 50 and concerned with your own rights over your own life, including the capacity to end it on your own terms in as safe and effective a manner as possible, I highly recommend Exit International and The Peaceful Pill Handbook.

DisgruntedGineaPig
“Then it's not "selling the house to pay for care" but "is it right that someone with £400k in savings gets their rent and food for free just because it's in a carehome?" and that feels rather different to "make them sell their home".”

Part of the problem is that Adult Services budgets do not now stretch to giving people the level of care that could enable them to stay in their own home so some people have to go into a home sooner than they really need to.

Once there, no they shouldn’t expect to live rent and expense free, but Alzheimer’s, a stroke, are medical conditions. No other section of society has to pay for medical nursing care. Just old people.

@isabellerossignol that thread sounds like peak mumsnet

Imagine if you HAD moved to the SE, couldn’t afford the exorbitant housing and ended up having to (gasp) rent. Then in the future, when you have no home to sell to pay for your care, MNetters can accuse you of spending all your money on Ferraris and cocaine instead of being a diligent saver.

"is it right that someone with £400k in savings gets their rent and food for free just because it's in a carehome?" Perhaps they should pay for their rent and food. So maybe £1000 - £2000 a month? And the other £3000 to be funded by taxation across the entire elderly population base, not just those who are unlucky enough to get dementia. Especially since the caps on council funding mean the ones with dementia aren't just funding their care, up to a third of what they pay is funding someone else's care.

If we are looking to better fund care then surely one solution would be to add a charge to council tax.
You may say "not everyone will use the care system" but not every one has children to educate but we all pay for the schools.

Once there, no they shouldn’t expect to live rent and expense free, but Alzheimer’s, a stroke, are medical conditions. No other section of society has to pay for medical nursing care. Just old people.

And not only do we expect them to pay their own medical care, we ask them to pay for someone else's care too. It's estimated that self-payers pay 40% more than council rates for receiving the same care.

God this subject is one of the most depressing and simultaneously rage inducing I have had to deal with through direct experience in the last few years.

We managed 18 months with my DMIL having moved her onto the mainland from her little flat in with us because we were lucky enough to have the space in a rented shared house to do so. We had adult "children" and other friends who could keep an eye for short periods of time so were better off than most, but I still, being the lower earner with the less prestigious job had to give it up in order to do so effectively.

It wasn't too bad to start with - dementia repetition and routines - yep, nailed it - but deterioration isn't linear - vital function and capabilities can literally vanish overnight, and no amount of twiddle blankets or going through photo albums will help - visual perception goes - TV programmes can't be followed and then the TV cannot be seen at all - every scrap of joy is gradually stolen from a dementia sufferer. It's like caring for a toddler who is continuously regressing but still had capacity and whose wishes must be respected when more lucid or when it suits the medical profession...... costs of caring at home are also high - no public transport so taxis to any appointments - heating high all the time because they are constantly cold - extra laundry - extra shopping because tastes may change overnight and finding something, anything suitable to keep them fed and physically healthy may require several extra trips at times when maybe only a more expensive convenience store is open - various aids to help with bathing that bring their own extra layer of fun as the inflatable bath seat comes adrift from its suckers and you have to grapple with a slippery adult already convinced she's going to drown with lots of calm good humour and the sure conviction that a hernia or slipped disc is going to render you useless at any minute...... I could go on and on and I salute those nodding with me and hail your stamina.....

According to the fees now being paid to the pretty good care home where she is now resident, the care I mainly provided - never mind the effect on my mental health - is worth 61,200. The state, recognising ,my efforts paid me around 4.800 personally. Her pension helped with household costs to the tune of around 1000.00. We are still sorting out the impact of the whole scenario - her tiny flat has been sold (less than 100.000. By various calculations, we will be applying for state funding in late 2021 - if the poor husk of a woman with a fairly healthy body lasts that long.

It's sick that I am grateful that my Mum is at the end stage of cancer with all her marbles, rather than succumbing to the hideous death that is dementia.

A PP has identified that dementia patients are actively discriminated against under the current system - it is not a "social disease" it is a medical condition with many complex issues attached and should not be considered as such.

Helena - no I don't use a childminder. But there we have another good example of how 'caring' hasn't worked. Women have grown and moved on, society, the work place (and most men) havent. 'Caring' covers all of this - women expected to go to work AND do most of the childcare, housework, elderly care etc. I think the problem is more acute at elderly care because by the time this is needed a lot of women have frankly had enough of being expected to do everything. Look at the divorce rate post 55/60, says it all.

"It's political suicide to suggest that people who have valuable homes, they are no longer living in should use that value to pay for care."

This is just a bad idea. Its unfair. Medical costs are already bloated by inefficiency. This would serve to dump a lot of money into the medical industry which would just wind up going towards more inefficiency and administrative bloat. And it would make the government even more dependent on an overheated housing market which is almost certainly in bubble state.

I think for 'family', we can usually read 'women'
This with bloody bells on. This is my experience of aging grandparents who live 100 miles away. Whist my dbro was and still is celebrated each time (twice a year) he visits my Grandmother (was grandparents), making a cup of tea and taking her a mr Kipling cake, I get frowned upon for only going once every month and am expected to help her go to the toilet, change incontinence pads and clothes as necessary feed her, sort through the laundry room to find missing clothes, sort out care issues etc. Dbro never once visited on his own, cooked a meal or helped with laundry before we made the decision to move them in to a Care home.

When fil was dying from cancer it was also me who stepped up far more than dh. Being a woman does not make me any better at wiping someone’s bottom.

With regard to paying for your own care. Until recently, I was always of the opinion that you should pay for your own care if you had the funds to do so. Recently my views have changed somewhat. My grandparents were unlucky to get dementia meaning they had to be moved in to a care home. This costs over £1000 per week. My grandfather spent just under 2 years needing care. My grandmother is nearly at over 4 years now, so well over £300,000 in fees. Meanwhile a friends gps, did not get dementia and they have just inherited over £100,000 and each sibling and cousin each got that much. Basically they have been lucky not to see their grandparents suffer like we have and inherited substantially becasue of this.

There are also residents in the home who are socially funded. They did not have a property to sell, so the council pick up the tab. How is that fair? I know well off people who rent their homes, even though they could well afford to buy, purely because they believe the council will pay up when they need it.

I don’t believe there is any incentive to save for care while those who do not save still get the same standard of care that those who have worked hard and been careful with their money.
A pp said about a different country who have to pay in to an insurance scheme for their old age in case they need care. I believe this would be a fairer way to do things and make the system Much fairer for all.

@DisgruntledGuineaPig that’s interesting. I think I caught the tail end of this when I was doing my training, it was referred to as the “ psychogeries” ward. The NHS was different, I remember being on ward in 1990 and some people were admitted at Christmas simply because they would have been on their own on the day.
Stealth privatisation is a good way of putting it, by imposing an arbitrary distinction between health and social care and making everyone on the wrong side of the line pay.

I agree that it is overwhelmingly women/ daughters/ daughters in law who are expected to pick up the care burden. I experienced it myself, twice, firstly with grandfather and then with father as it seems the way in my family that women die before the men. However, pointing this out and saying I want no part of it does not solve the problem of who is going to look after our increasing numbers of frail elderly and how it is going to be funded.

Let's do some sums. Let's assume a care home that can house 8 people comfortably. You're looking at a capital cost of £1m at least there so about £5000 a month in finance all in. Then let's say a house manager on £30k and a shift of 4 full time carers priced at merely £20k all in each, but you need four shifts worth to cover 24h and holidays so 16*20+30=350k per year. Add on another £50k per year for utilities, rates, maintenance, oh and food and supplies. We're at 470k. Divide that by 8 inmates and you're at £58k... And I thought I was being conservative!!

What do you mean, it’s political suicide to suggest that people’s homes should be sold to pay for care, if they no longer need them to live in?

This is what happens anyway, and has done for years. . It’s happened 3 times in this family alone - a parent, an in-law, and an aunt.

All 3 had dementia, and by a certain stage anything but 24/7 care in a care home simply wasn’t an option. Who else was supposed to pay, given that they had sufficient assets and could no longer live in their own homes anyway?

The reason dementia wasn’t as common in the past, is because fewer people lived as long as they do now. The likelihood of developing it increases with age.

As for care homes being expensive, yes, they are - some certainly more than others - but if you work out the cost per day, and compare it to the cost of B&B in a reasonable hotel in the same area, it might not seem so excessive. It’s not just B&B, but all meals and drinks, all laundry, often a lot of assistance with personal care, washing, dressing and ‘toileting’ as they like to call it, help with eating and drinking if the person is very frail, someone on hand all day and all night, and very often activities, too.

@MaryAnn75 people start to understand the unfairness of it all when they experience it, I’m not embarrassed to say I often wished my father had had cancer rather than Alzheimer’s. He would have been able to manage his condition, with support form me and my brother, but wouldn’t have required 5 years of total care and management, while we had to witness his diminution and pay up to £5000 per month for the privilege. Yes his money, but money we would haveinherited if he hadn’t had dementia.

You are correct whatabout, pointing it out won't change it. However saying 'no' will change it. No doubt that's labelled as 'not being kind' however it is kind, it's kind to women's mental health and therefore the wellbeing of their families. I have a sister and a brother, as far as I am concerned any care will be shared, my brother will have to contribute.

Frankly it is digusting and immoral that people are kept alive when they are suffering and don't even know who their family are. This is not a kind and compassionate society.

All home care (including for Dementia) in this country should form part of the NHS. It’s the only way to get consistent care across the country. That way Care Workers can also have the security a full time professional role with professional salary - private providers are unable to cope. The only way to fund this is to increase taxes

Home care services when good allows carers to work, have lives, and care for their loved ones.

It's political suicide to suggest more people will need to do sell their homes to pay for care. At the moment, the people required to do that are actually only quite a narrow subset of those receiving adult social care. There are lots of people in often very valuable homes being provided with care packages by the local authority for free. The idea that those people ought to have to make some contribution from their assets, even if not until after their death, is incredibly unpopular. Do you remember the response to Theresa May's proposal in the 2017 general election campaign?

@BubblyBarbara

4 full time carers for 8 residents? If only! We were lucky to have 3 carers for 20 residents. And days were split into 3 shifts, early, late and night. Although most of us did doubles. So effectively 2 lots of staff per day. Night shift had even less staff than days.