...to think the Samaritans isn't always the best intervention for those in crisis?

[AwkwardPigeon]

I'm just getting sick of the half-hearted attempts to help people suffering with their mental health on social media, all of these prescriptive tweets and FB posts with the addendum of the Samaritans phone number.

As a society we really need to be doing more than just directing all suicidal people to the Samaritans, I'm not doubting it's a useful lifeline to some in a time of need but it definitely has its limitations. I question its effectiveness in comparison to other interventions like face-to-face regular counselling sessions which unfortunately there are very long waiting lists for under the NHS and sadly many people if they were suicidal would (and probably do) take their own lives before getting a referral.

The Samaritans service have helped me in the past to a degree when, although not suicidal, I was struggling considerably with my feelings around specific events however I did get the impression they were scared to give any actual advice. Another time I rang them the most fed up-sounding man ever answered the phone and I just hung up because I sensed I wouldn't be able to open up to him. I think it's a lottery like many other services in that whom you get through to depends on the quality of help you receive and the level of optimism you feel once the call ends.

Also, call me cynical but I just think it's so easy for individuals to push the burden onto the Samaritans when we shouldn't really be relying on a charity largely funded by donations from the public to fix everyone's mental health problems and prevent suicides. There are so many other agencies that need to play a part too and us as individuals in helping those we know rather than signposting them to a charity to speak to a stranger. Am I being too harsh?!

It sounds almost as if there are several different approaches to training within the Samaritans. If there have been new guidelines fairly recently, maybe some newer supervisors/trainers (I imagine turnover is quite high?) have embraced them more fully, perhaps, than experienced trainers and volunteers, who aren't so wary of engaging with callers. Sometimes, in any role, when you're new and less confident, you're concerned about doing/saying the wrong thing, so err on the side of caution, perhaps to the extreme?

I don't really 'have' anyone - but I do have people in different timezones who I can just have a normal convo with rather than a full on 'I'm suicidal' conversation with.

WatcherintheRye I think you're absolutely right there.

User. What you've explained here is what I've felt many times (sometimes for weeks and months). Begging to be put out of my misery. That's what I'm talking about when I've been giving my experiences.

I can only tell you what I personally have found useful. I.e. watching comedians, avoiding sad songs, avoiding arguments/discussions on MN and when in dire straits, calling the emergency services. I've stated that the Samaritans haven't worked for me personally - I never suggested that they should be abolished.
You're probably in that limbo where you neither want help, nor do you feel able to continue? And that's possibly where the Samaritans ARE in fact useful.
Feel free to offer your input as to what you feel would help on here, in your specific case and in general terms.

I personally think the Samaritans have a very important role. When you feel overwhelmed, out of control, no one to speak to, they are a service to fallback on. For those suffering with ptsd, severe anxiety and overwhelm there will be times they have no close support and therapist unavailable etc and they can help in that moment to bring the person down a notch.

Because it can't really be dealt with without massive changes to the structure of society. And there's nothing in place to deal with it.

Same is true of climate change. Doesn’t stop us trying.

Except it hasn't been declared a crisis. So it's never even tabled in the House of Commons.

I agree that we need more resources for suicidal people.

I have done some suicide intervention work as a volunteer, not with the Samaritans, and it's very difficult to do and I can see why people who use services like that walk away feeling frustrated.

On the question of 'advice' you aren't supposed to give advice for a couple of reasons. Firstly, you aren't typically in a position to give any advice. You don't always know what would help and you have your own biases. You are also not getting an impartial account of a situation as you are dealing with a highly distressed human. So giving advice is not a good idea.

It's also why people have to say things like 'that must have made you feel terrible' rather then 'that was terrible' because you don't know the full truth about any situation. For example, you might have a man on the line complaining he is suicidal because his marriage is ending because his wife is unkind to him. You might be tempted in those circumstances to say something like 'I'm sorry to hear she treats you badly' or 'You don't deserve to be treated like that'. But potentially the reason that mans wife treats him like that is because he is physically abusive to her. Potentially that then gives him ammunition against her, 'The lady from the suicide line says you are terrible and you deserve it'. A less extreme example is that you make someone feel that nothing in their life is their fault, when actually it is fairly likely that at least some of it is their fault, or there is at least something they can do differently. That's why it's so important not to take sides.

Secondly, giving advice can cause suicidal people to just shut down or feel unheard. For someone who is really distressed or even angry, being presented with solutions can actually make them feel angrier, even if the solutions are sensible. So giving advice can get in the way of helping.

In general, it's very difficult to build a raport with someone who is feeling suicidal. I think it's much like meeting new people in real life, some you click with, some you don't. So I think that it isn't always the fault of the Samaritans if someone walks away from the service feeling dissatisfied. In my experience some people want help but also don't want help if you know what I mean. They are so angry they just want someone to rant at, and even in extreme times, want someone to confirm that they are awful etc etc - so when you refuse to respond with anger or tell them they are awful they go away angry.

Others have huge problems that it's just not possible to resolve in a telephone conversation. People get frustrated because they expect us to somehow be able to resolve all their problems, but that just isn't possible. When people reach the point where they are suicidal, it's a crisis situation and often difficult to resolve on the spot.

The point of services like the Samaritans is not to stop people from feeling suicidal completely but to take the urge away. Studies have shown that if people have someone to talk to for 30 mins or more, the urge to actively kill themselves often goes away for the day. It doesn't mean that their suicidal feelings will go away, just that the immediate danger is reduced.

While I agree that many people promote the Samaritans on social media to make themselves look good, I don't really care because I think the net effect is probably good as it all helps to reduce the stigma around calling them or contacting other similar services. One of the things I've been shocked by when dealing with suicidal people is how often they don't think they deserve to contact such services. I dealt with one person who admitted to having felt suicidal every day for months, but didn't feel they were bad enough to see a doctor about it and were quite shocked when I suggested they might want to consider that. It's important people realise the service is for them, not some mythical worthier person.

I dealt with one person who admitted to having felt suicidal every day for months, but didn't feel they were bad enough to see a doctor about it and were quite shocked when I suggested they might want to consider that.

And this is the key point that we're trying to get across. The Samaritans won't offer any advice whatsoever. Not in my experience and I've rang about 5 times.

@Mehooha , at the service I've volunteered for, the suggestion to contact doctors or seek therapy is the only 'advice' that you are allowed to give. Or suggest people contact the police if they have been the victim of a crime or are at risk of that.

You are only supposed to do that once you've built up a raport with the person and are only allowed to suggest it as a possibility.

Even that is fraught with risk. Some people take offence at the suggestion. Others get frustrated because they have hurdles to accessing help or perceive that they do. Others have had bad experiences with therapists and doctors and suggesting they try that makes them feel more frustrated and disengage with you.

It's just not easy unfortunately.

I think that if you're in crisis, the Samaritans are the last service I would advise.
If you're just pissed off and want a rant and for someone to rant to, they're fine.

I completely agree that giving out the Samaritans number in response to a story about suicide is unhelpful and absolutely agree that there needs to be more MH support nationally. Thing is there's a whole range of feelings between in crisis and actively suicidal and 'just pissed off'. It's possible to be incredibly low and depressed, to have suicidal thoughts even, without being actively suicidal. When I've been so so low and lonely the exact thing I've needed is just a listening service...just someone to talk at...! Yes, I can imagine it would be disconcerting to talk to complete silence but it's rare for me to be able to just talk about myself, especially as my DH suffers with his MH too, so I totally understand why they don't want to talk back too much. Also because sometimes it takes me a minute to get going with saying something. I once saw a counsellor who kept asking questions and I never got around to talking about what was truly bothering me as I didn't have the time to pluck up the courage!

For someone who is really distressed or even angry, being presented with solutions can actually make them feel angrier, even if the solutions are sensible. So giving advice can get in the way of helping.

Yes, this is so important. Sometimes people just need to be heard. I hate hate hate it when I just need to talk about how hard I'm finding life and someone tries to find a solution. Especially if that person doesn't know you as then often the solutions are completely impractical.

Same is true of climate change. Doesn’t stop us trying.

Yes. But (at risk of highjacking) if you look at the current attempts to address CC. It's a very 'past-the-buck' approach. Let's go travel to some summit and shout at politicians. Meanwhile, I still want to buy a whole new trendy outfit for a night out, have a hundred pairs of shoes, want fast food and goods couriered on demand, want to live in houses that are all linear and uniform and create waste as a result. Want to change my phone/laptop/computer every couple years minimum and on and on.

Look, the truth is we have created a society shaped around constant economic growth and this has resulted in us living in a way further and further removed from our natural environment. The tribe is the best way of raising individuals. At a national level we have a 'tribe' but at the micro level it increasingly means nothing.

We shape our lives, hopes, expectations, sense of self and meaning around the economic aims of this society. It starts as soon as a child is conceived. Where it will be brought up, how long a parent will be able to stay with it before going back to work, how long children stay in school, how many exams they take, how many qualifications they need etc etc etc. The pressure on young people is ridiculous.

My eldest recently applied for an unpaid graduate training scheme. He had to: apply then send a cv. Then do an online questionnaire, then wait to be selected. Then after selection he had to do a maths and readoning test. Then an online interview and then (after further selection and travelling 100 miles by train) a face to face interview. He didn't get the position.

The western paradigm is creating its own dystopia on the personal, social and environmental level.

Sorry. Advocating for more services is great. It's definately needed, but they are the end point. The starting point is what needs to change and that is not going to happen.

And as pointed out, the second anyone suggests putting halt on this or changing the system they are villified by the press who are invested in keeping the status quo and people keep voting in governments who slash services.

I personally couldn't recommend the samaritans to anyone feeling suicidal, it's not something I will do again in the future either, bad experiences that actually made me feel far worse.

I wonder whether anyone is listening? There have been about 6 of us who have said that it was not helpful. About 6 have said that it saved their lives. Are we willing to toss the dice and throw it out as a cure-all?

people keep voting in governments who slash services.

Boris PROMISED (pinky promise!) more police and nurses?

Surely you can't disbelieve him?

About 30% of the population can see through bullshite.

"I used their email service once and never got a reply"

That's terrible. Why do they have an email service if they are going to ignore emails?

My email was ignored too. I thought it was just me

It is sad that so many have not found it helpful. I am very proud that I was a Samaritans volunteer, I often listened to very sad stories, very angry stories, very confused stories and those actually taking their lives. Yes I listened but I also reflected back what was being said, asked questions, took my time. Just because your shift ends does not mean you end a call. Calls can go on for a long time. By talking some can see what is happening in a different way and feel strong enough to get through another day. We are not the NHS but for many we support them when they have no one else to tell how they feel. To be on the end of a phone with someone who is ending their life is not easy at all, but that person is not alone and as a volunteer that experience never leaves you. If people feel the service is not consistent in the way it supports people then it is a positive thing that it is highlighted.

and people keep voting in governments who slash services.

Because the opposition is so outrageously, consistently shit/pie in the sky that people see that voting that lot in is even worse than the devil we know.

@EnidBlyton I'm sorry to hear about your daughter's experience.

There's an organisation called Saneline who have a service from 4:30pm most days that she could call. Mind also has free counselling. You can dial 111 if you need help and someone will assess you and give advice on what to do. When in crisis you can go to A&E. Some areas have a suicide crisis space for those who are suicidal or places you can stay for a few days with specialised staff. There is also the OOH services for your GP practice.

There are also areas with emergency 24 hour numbers. In my borough there's a phone line for mental health crisis staffed by a trained mental health team available 24/7. It's really a matter of researching what's available and some areas are better than areas for support.

Samaritans are, in my opinion, a wonderful service. 24/7 listening for those who need someone to talk to. Some people are very isolated and lonely and sometimes just talking to someone else really helps. At other times, getting it all out can put things into perspective and make it clear what you need to do.

I wonder whether anyone is listening?

Who would be listening to this thread? No-one but I, like you, think it's criminal that MH services have been slashed to the bone.

For anyone with a teen or child who is struggling, do also look at Papyrus.

papyrus-uk.org/about/

On top of the fact that the fabric of society has changed epically over the past 40 years or so (and certainly in the past 10 years of Tory government due to swinging cuts to services), a lot of people do not realise it has. You see it on here every single day. 'Go to CAB for free legal advice'. 'Claim tax credits/generous benefits'. 'Go to the council/get on the list for housing'. 'Your HV can direct you to SureStart'. 'Apply for respite care/care package'. 'Ring for an emergency appointment with Gandalf the Wizard, your GP, who will be able to fix everything.'

Or, they believe everyone has endless pockets of money, hence 'Can you go private?' to every need that's not being met. 'Surely' you, me and everyone has 'family and friends' who can provide money, childcare, respite care, etc.

The whole paradigm has changed but a lot of people haven't caught up or don't want to.

Folks, A LOT of this simply is not there anymore, hence why rates of poor MH, suicide and homelessness have increased.

I mean, people didn't realise Samaritans isn't free, trained counsellors available 24/7 able to dole out 'good advice' and even ask if they 'advertise' as such.

So you have a load of folks quipping 'Ring Samaritans'.

And NO ONE is going to pay for all these services because most unfortunately, there is still a prevailing, nasty undercurrent of this society that social ills, mental health conditions and even some disabilities are the result of personal weakness and failing.

I completely agree.

I’ve never found them especially helpful and I have tried them several times.

All they seem to do is say “oh you poor thing that must be so hard”

They aren’t allowed or trained to give advice and they don’t even seem to understand how nhs mh services work.

I’m actually pretty sure they do more harm than good!

I honestly think that the people who recommend them have never ever had to call them. yes!

Early hours of the morning are when people feel most alone and can’t access services, nor feel able to call friends/family waking them/worrying them.

There’s a desperate need for a genuine overnight/ooh mh emergency support helpline.

But then, given even in hours services are woefully underfunded and unavailable (I’ve been without support since April, despite being housebound and very unwell) I’m not holding my breath! Even the crisis team have put me on hold and cut me off at times. That’s if you can even get hold of anyone!

“most callers want a 'conversation' rather than just to scream into their pillow.” Exactly

I’d much rather all these virtue signallers contacted their Mp to raise the issue of poor mh services funding and ask their Mp regularly to pursue this.

I’ve found other MH helplines more helpful but as they’re not as well known they don’t receive as much funding/support.

Crisis services 10/15 years ago were better and better funded.

When posters on here have asked for help/support I’ve given info about other helplines and services and I hope thats helped them.

@enidblyton sorry you and your dd are struggling. What is the issue do you think? There are other mh helplines depending on what the problem is. Waiting lists are crazy long but you can also go through the nhs. How old is your dd?

@kateandme I’d not heard of shout thank you

@meehooha if you’re Mp is one who is more a cause of such cuts & crises than one interested in helping vulnerable people then can I suggest perhaps instead you contact the health secretary? I know this current govt are shit but if we make it known that we know they’re shit, that we expect certain services to be better funded etc MAYBE it might get through? Vain hope possibly but better than doing nothing.

“I think if you are extremely depressed then you need to see a GP or be sectioned” yea good luck trying that! Have you any actual experience with mh nhs services? Major issues at the moment not only with lack of funding/resources but as a result many patients being dismissed/ignored completely!

What would you like them to do?

Have better training and perhaps recruiting practice - just because someone wants to be a volunteer doesn’t mean they’ll necessarily be suitable

Active listening - a real skill that requires good training

Signposting to more effective, more suitable services, especially if a life is at risk

Engage in actual conversation, not just reflecting back what the caller is saying, I particularly hate the “there there” type responses

“Even idle chit chat would have been useful.” Yes! I’ve noted on other threads recently that when I’m very anxious and lonely I’d really appreciate a helpline that is ok with me just having a “blether” to get through it. It’s a distraction that allows me to calm down and help me feel less alone.

“There is - if you’re under the Crisis Team (which is a halfway house between inpatient treatment and just be under the care of your GP + psychiatry).

There you have daily visits at home and emergency contact 24/7 numbers” not true everywhere. I’ve been under an excellent crisis team elsewhere, current one is shite! To the point they can and do make you feel like you’re wasting their time if you call, I’ve even had that actually said “you’re wasting our time”

I too have been told there’s a time limit of 30 mins and noticed calls concluded against my wishes around that point.

“Not having a stable G.P. who you see all the time and knows you, and who you can quickly get an appointment with.” This is a HUGE issue, the lack of continuity of care now. I have a lovely gp but she’s so good and lovely it’s really hard to get an appointment with her, so now I accept that for “physical” stuff I’ll accept appointments with other gps in the surgery but I try to only deal with her for the mh stuff, but that can backfire as my physical stuff can get me down and the other gps don’t understand WHY eg I cannot have meds changed on a whim, that I am barely coping as it is and can’t really be expected to “push through” also it means she may not be up to date with the other meds I’ve been prescribed etc

or they are just chatting for something to do. but that can be very helpful in stopping someone feeling lonely surely that’s important?

I’m another that’s emailed at least twice and not got a reply too. Clearly not as uncommon as claimed.

Folks, A LOT of this simply is not there anymore, hence why rates of poor MH, suicide and homelessness have increased hear hear!

A LOT of people are completely clueless as to the complete lack of services and support for the most vulnerable in our society now.

See that view on here repeatedly, that belief that there are people and services and help available - a lot of the time there IS NOT!



I phoned them once just after my dad had died and I'd had miscarriage number 3. I was being bullied at work, I felt like there was nothing good left in my life and I was suicidal. The bloke said to me that suicide was a choice that nobody could take off of me. I felt like he was implying I was threatening suicide for attention, although I appreciate that he was probably just trying to signal that there was no judgement from him. I phoned from a bench in the grounds of a church, I wish I'd just gone in and spoken to the vicar although I'm not religious. I just wanted someone to go "oh you poor bugger, that sounds awful."