To ask DH to back off from relative for the sake of our marriage?

[WatchingMyChickenStrip]

DH has a relative who has chronic depression and anxiety which started when a traumatic event happened within the family. The relative has never really sought any help for this- they've been prescribed medication which they haven't taken, offered therapy which they never went to.

Every so often, the relative will phone DH whenever they are having a particularly bad time and need to talk. DH usually ends up going round for hours, listening, trying to help. The relative usually rehashes the tragedy, and when DH comes home he is understanably upset himself for some time afterwards.

DH and I now have a non sleeping toddler, we're both working, and life is busy. I have had a really stressful time at work recently, we've caught every bug going this winter, and on top of the lack of sleep, I'm frankly run down and struggling a bit. Relative phoned DH on Friday, and he went round for two hours. We don't make a big thing of Valentine's day, but it was DH's day to do bath and bedtime while I cooked a nice meal and we were going to have a bit of a date night at home (cheesy I know, but we have nobody to babysit in the evenings) this ended up going up the left due to the relative's crisis.

This is where I'm perhaps being a bitch. The relative seems to need DH most at times when he's likely to be thinking of other things. Right before our wedding, when the baby was a few weeks old, a few days before baby's first Christmas, that sort of thing. I'm not saying they do it deliberately, but obviously I do notice it more when it's around certain times.

So I had a bit of a row with DH when he came back, and we haven't really spoken since. I told him that he needed to consider how much energy he expends on the relative versus how much he expends on his wife, because I was struggling right before his eyes, and he didn't seem to notice because he was caught up with relative. I also said that relative was basically a bottomless pit that he would never be able to fill or fix, and that it wasn't up to DH to be their crutch. DH said this was really unfair, but when I pointed out the length of time this has all been going on, plus the amount of time he has spent round there, and how nothing has helped long term, he went quiet.

We haven't really discussed it since, and I'm not sure whether to bring it up again or whether I've been unfair. DH is a really nice man, and his care and dedication to.family and friends is one of the things that made me fall in love with him, but I feel like at the minute it's at my detriment. I am known as a strong, capable person, which most of the time I'm glad to say I am, but I feel this is now being taken for granted

YANBU. You and your husband have tried to help, but to put it kindly, his first responsibility is to you and your child. I say this as someone who has suffered severe depression and anxiety. Your husband is putting his own mental health at risk here. Maybe the best thing would be to tell relative that they have to seek help. This has been going on for years. How much longer is your husband going to keep doing this? Sometimes we all have to be a bit "selfish" with our time and mental health. You husband needs to step back in my opinion.

It sounds like H is enabling his sibling to stayed mired in a toxic cycle and he is being dragged down. He is not a trained professional and is unwittingly doing him/her a disservice. Their seeking joint therapy would deepen their codependence.

You are in a crisis and H must be told in no uncertain terms. This must be prioritized. He is sabotaging your marriage and family, and the two of you need to pursue couples counseling. You are both going to burn out. He would also benefit from individual counseling to strengthen his boundaries.

The couples counseling should come first to clarify and examine how this issue is affecting both of you and your marriage. You and H would benefit from working on communication and conflict resolution. You are suffering and your voice needs to be heard. You both can gather strength in this setting and move forward together. If H wants to work on self-exploration, boundary setting, coping skills, etc., he should seek therapy in addition to the couples counseling.

to stay mired

YANBU. Noy at all. First, I would ask that DH no longer be 'on call'. That may mean seeing his sibling more often, but at set times that work with family life. So, an hour's chat over coffee every week and not hours on end in a crisis situation every other month.

Second, I think he needs therapy. You have no control over the sibling, who won't accept help, but he needs someone neutral to offload to, and frankly I would be surprised by a therapist who didn't get him to consider the issues
around not prioritising his relationship with his wife and dc. And his own mental health.

Lastly, couples counselling. You two have a problem, and it seems he's not hearing you when you say that.

Has your DH or his sibling contacted a targeted network for this sort of trauma? Support line or Cruse for example, have specific help for those bereaved in violent or traumatic ways.
Rather than using your DH as a sounding board, getting the sibling in touch with people qualified to help might be a good step.
You and your DH need some open and compassionate communication. He needs to hear that you’re worried about the cost to his mental health, and that you also are struggling but fell unable to turn to him because he prioritises his sibling.
By offering other outlets rather than wanting to deny the sibling your DH’s support, you’re more likely to make progress, I’d have thought.

Otherwise all DH hears is “ditch sibling, what about me?” which makes you opponents not partners.

As someone who has gone through PTSD op . My relatives could have given me all the support in the world which they did but until I decided to seek professional help none of it made me feel better. It was like scratching at an itch. Felt better during but afterwards not so much.
Of course I am not saying your husband should refuse to engage but maybe a set time to see his brother. You DH also has to set boundary’s about the gory details.

I had PTSD from an awful birth which my DH and DM were both at. It took me a while to realise that going through every detail was bringing it back for them each time as well.

I had therapy booked twice and just didn’t go. I didn’t take my meds I was in a really bad place.

It wasn’t until I accepted therapy and a lot of that therapy including how I could ask those close to me for help that I started to get better.
Please ignore the negatives posts OP.

Graphista, the point was not that they want to remain anxious or depressed but that the pay off for it is greater than getting better. Or in some cases the pain of going through the process of getting better seems too much for them to contemplate. But either way it keeps them stuck. This is just in response to your original statement that no one wants to feel like that, because I think that was a sweeping generalisation.

I completely agree with all you say about the state of mental health provision in this country. Many CBT providers in the NHS have just done a twelve month course, and there is so much more to therapy than just techniques and homework. It is signally not just having a chat, either. Are you able to access private therapy or would this not be financially viable. You could at least then find someone who has experience and a more holistic (integrative) therapeutic approach and who you feel you could work well with (the relationship in therapy is proven to be a significant factor in the success of the therapy).

But I'm afraid you're projecting your situation onto the OPs and it's not the same. The DHs relative has not exhausted all avenues, unlike yourself. She has refused to engage, while putting all her distress and onto her relative, who is not equipped or trained to deal with it and who is receiving secondary trauma as well as re-experiencing his own trauma. While I might empathise with the relative, I can also see that it is not helping either them or the DH to get better.

YANBU. You need to have a calm conversation with your DH. He's not helping his sibling and he's hurting his own family.

It's so easy for some people to judge you from the comfort of their keyboards.

My DH lost his son from his first marriage in the most tragic of circumstances. He has periods of being overwhelmed by grief still (it happened many years ago) but he manages to remain mindful of other people's feelings.

Can you possibly get some support help with regards to your feelings and emotions? You dont want to risk burn out by suppressing how you feeling. Again, its get the right balance through support.
You are incredibly for being aware of needs and musts and targeting something that may cause another trauma. Especially reaching this far. An also, dont ever discredit your own kindness in caring about your family and trying to maintain your own MH. Something I noticed that you did with pp. You are not waiting for your family to fall apart to do something, you are tackling and issue before its gets worse.
You are preventing not enabling!!

“Graphista, the point was not that they want to remain anxious or depressed but that the pay off for it is greater than getting better”

I understood the point perfectly well thanks and I find that comment quite patronising and condescending.

Just because I’m mentally ill doesn’t mean I’m stupid.

Nor does my disagreeing with the point made mean I didn’t understand either.

“I completely agree with all you say about the state of mental health provision in this country. Many CBT providers in the NHS have just done a twelve month course, and there is so much more to therapy than just techniques and homework.” With how poorly I now know it was implemented I would actually be AMAZED if the people I was stuck with for this had even done that much training! In one case I actually know (found out later) they’d ONLY done a 12 week course - but actually only 12 DAYS because it was a one day a week course! I kid you not - someone who’d only had 12 DAYS of “training” on the technique was considered sufficiently trained to do such a therapy with frequently very ill and distressed patients. That’s not only negligent I consider that harmful!

I’ve considered private therapy, the difficulty is partially cost (though a relative has kindly said they’d cover if necessary) but also at the moment as I’m housebound I can’t access it (none here do house calls not even private practitioners), and I have no idea (and I’ve TRIED to get info and advice on this) how to ensure I was using a good quality practitioner.

Without wishing to sound flippant I wish there was a review site available for such services. A sort of tripadvisor type thing?

I am bringing my experience to bear on the situation under discussion but disagree I’m projecting.

So often “refusal to engage” is cited as a fault on the behalf of the person needing help - but they’re ill! It’s not as simple as just forcing them to participate in treatment that they are wary of.

Instead the people supporting them should find ways to reassure them, listen to their concerns and find solutions to those concerns.

Eg “I don’t want to take that med because I’m worried about side effects/dependency/I’ve heard they zonk you out” - a different med or lower dose can be suggested, discuss concerns re side effects possible preventive actions etc

“I don’t like talking to strangers” - common issue with therapy - discuss this with them, reassure them about confidentiality, that they don’t have to see that person again if they don’t “click”, that they don’t have to talk about the “issue” straight away they can get to know the therapist first etc

“Talking about the issue makes me feel worse” - discuss that they don’t have to at least not straight away, that they can talk about the things that DO help instead, or the effects. Reassure them that they can stop at any time etc

I think a BIG reason why a lot of people “refuse to engage” is because they don’t KNOW what therapy is really like (film & tv don’t help with exaggerated/unrealistic examples for dramatic/comedic effect)

Another is that especially with the cuts at the moment we’re (the mentally ill) are being listened to even less.

Yes this is my personal experience but it’s one I’ve heard is happening to a lot of people:

Being told you’ve no choice of therapist

Being told no choice of meds or being pushed into accepting meds that don’t work/Make you worse because they refuse to give you (often the more expensive) meds you hope/even know do work.

The “hard sell” of whatever meds are “popular” with hcps at various times is appalling! I well remember at the start of my journey being prescribed prozac which was being feted as a “miracle” med and being completely disbelieved when it did NOTHING For me. I was accused outright of lying, not taking it “properly” when I Absolutely was!

Sometimes too yes people will take eg antidepressants for maybe a week or 2 and feel it’s not working for them when it can take 6-8 weeks to begin taking effect. Still hcps are not always making this clear to patients and also the importance of taking at the same time every day etc.

I think BU , he is helping a relative with a major health issue that as we all know is notoriously hard to shake off
I also get completely how annoying it is for you .

I suggest dh tells relative he will support them in taking to first few therapy sessions but unless they help themselves he is stepping back

I think your difficulty isn't what he's doing, instead of being around to do things with you at home, it's that he's not around when you could do with somebody else to help. So, can you work around this on a practical level - would a cleaner/gardener/other paid-for-person help? can you swap babysitting with other friends with young children? [two non-sleeping toddlers can't be much worse than one for an evening/night, if it gets you a peaceful evening shortly afterwards]? Can either of you alter your work hours/work from home?

Your husband might find counselling helpful for himself, to help him set boundaries for his sibling - it's OK and probably helpful for him to say to his sibling "I can't come round tonight, but I can phone you at 8pm for an hour" or "I need to put $toddler to bed, can we speak later?" or "I'm doing childcare at the moment, you're welcome to come here and help play with the playdough" or "I'm happy to come over for an hour, but I'm not up for a detailed conversation about $tragedy tonight, it's been a long week". or "We've been talking about $tragedy for 30 mins now, I can manage another few minutes, but then I'm going to need a break and a subject change" But if he doesn't believe it's OK to say/do that sort of thing, he won't do it. None of this boundary setting is being nasty to the badly affected person, it's about your husband working out what's OK for him. None of it depends on the sibling's willingness or otherwise to seek help elsewhere.

Adult NHS mental health services are underfunded and heavily in demand. Even if the sibling decides to seek support, it could be years before support is in place, so setting some limits around the length of the conversations, location, timing and content is important anyway. Depending on what sort of professional support the sibling needs, it may be available in the independent sector, but it's unclear whether that's an affordable thing. The voluntary sector is worth exploring too, but again there's probably high demand.

“I don’t like talking to strangers” - common issue with therapy - discuss this with them, reassure them about confidentiality, that they don’t have to see that person again if they don’t “click”, that they don’t have to talk about the “issue” straight away they can get to know the therapist first etc

In my own experience, that and the fact that they go over the fact that they may have to report things to the police/Social Services etc at the very first meeting makes it hard to trust them. I was terrified I'd be deemed an unfit mother at points because of my trauma. Whilst I understand why they need to do it, it doesn't help people engage.

Graphista I understand your point agree with much that you have posted.

That said there are absolutely a cohort of people with MH issues who do not seek treatment (not because they are afraid, unable to gain access to the appropriate therapy, don't understand the therapeutic/medical options they can access etc) but because they don't want to because of the power their illness gives them over their relationships with other people.

It's an ugly truth, but not all people with MH conditions are fundamentally kind. They can be narcissistic, selfish and manipulative - just like anyone else.

In some cases of course the MH condition itself can be responsible for some of these traits but in others it simply magnifies personality traits that were already evident prior to someone becoming ill.

I can't possibly say if the OP's in-law falls into this cohort, but it's foolish (as my family found out) to pretend it doesn't exist.

That still doesn't mean that person should be denied support but it does mean you might want to approach that very differently than the way you might offer support to someone who does not exhibit these traits.

In case I’ve missed it, how long ago did this death occur?

Graphista I wasn't trying to patronise you, just explain my perspective. And no one called you stupid or implied it any way. As for suggesting that I would conflate mental illness with mental incapacity, that's just offensive.

I am really shocked that people can be qualified after twelve weeks. If that's true, that's irresponsible.

I don't really know how you can be sure someone is the right therapist for you aside from actually talking to a few and getting the feel for how they work, as it's such a personal decision. But most decent therapists would be happy to chat to you on the phone before committing to the first meeting. Some therapists work via Skype or zoom so if you were happy to work remotely, that might work for you. You may find that an integrative therapist works better for you. Someone who is proficient in CBT but also uses other techniques that support you in different ways. That's just my experience of good therapists, anyway, they are open to broader approaches, rather than tied to one methodology. If you haven't already, I suggest going on the Counselling Directory, Psychology Today and BACP websites to compare therapists in your area.

I don't think anyone was saying you can force someone to undertake treatment or that that would be desirable. If someone doesn't want to engage, that's their prerogative. Equally, I can offer the opinion that it's not best for the OP's DH and his and his family's mental health. Nor is it likely to improve the relative's mental health. But that's just an opinion.

I can understand how frustrating this is for you but it’s got to come from DH to realise this for himself otherwise if something happened to said relative he may never forgive you for forcing him to make a decision.
I think you are right though and it does sound like he is being used as a crutch? Has DH opened up about everything that happened, it’s strange that only him is being asked despite other relatives

@Greenandpleasanter you would also be surprised at the people who have trained longer and the views they hold, they shock me the must.

I have trained for 6 years, I volunteer and I continue to train outside of my degree and I will wholeheartedly say that there are many things I'm unable to work with BUT I would do my best to research and train as much as I can. My understanding is, I will never be fully trained because their are alot more mental health issues that we dont understand or get in a sense because people are different and take to there issues differently but also its evolving and new diagnosis are coming to light. Furthermore, counselling isn't a regulated profession so anyone can call themselves a counsellors (which is bloody shocking). But apparently this is to change in 2024. I however, am very upfront with my clients, I will show what qualifications I have and will let them know my full background. I will always be honest with client unfortunately others do it differently. I tried and support them while waiting on other services to take them.
With regards to confidentiality. It frustrates the life out of me because it very much limits the work that can be done with the fear of exposure but a good counsellor would work with this. A good counsellor will build trust not exploit.

A good counsellor will be honest, be clear and have evidence in their learning and experience. You will also feel a genuine connection if that counsellor is right for you.

• You are in your right mind. You get most of your DHs attention. Why begrudge the bits of attention he is giving to his ill sibling? I just do not think that is very fair. If the sibling had cancer, would you react the same way? Probably not.

I’m leaving this thread now. As a person with a chronic mental health condition of schizophrenia I am grateful that my family would not ever stop their support towards me. Professionals can only do so much. *

@PlanDeRaccordement you sound like a massive insensitive selfish twat and clearly you didn't read the thread properly if you did you would see the op repeatedly saying in her posts how she isn't coping and how do you know someone is in their right mind? are you a Doctor or a psychologist? for someone who claims they have mental health issues you have fuck all understanding of the impacts not just on the sufferer but those around them as well. You should be ashamed of your nasty attitude on here towards the op.

@WatchingMyChickenStrip I feel massive sympathy for you and YANBU. Whilst I have sympathy for your DH sibling for what they're going through it doesn't mean its ok or even healthy for them to constantly be using your DH and others as a crutch. I say this as someone with two serious MH conditions I've been at rock bottom many times over the last 10 years and I still have very low days where all I want to do is stay in the safety of my bed covers but that's a slippery slope and not healthy to do and as hard as it is to ask for help I still go seek advice from my psychiatrist and do all the treatments on offer because it makes my life easier in the long run and I've learned from my psychiatrist how to manage some aspects of my MH. A lot of people assume everyone with mental health issues want to get better and manage their conditions but that's not true, for everyone I've met with MH issues who want to get better and manage their issues I've met those who dismiss any treatments suggested and continue to get by in life relying heavily on people who simply aren't equipped to deal with their issues long term and it takes its toll on others around them trying to help. Having mental health issues in no way gives anyone the right be selfish at the cost of someone else's mental health as harsh as that sounds at some point we all despite our issues have to take responsibility for ourselves. Your DH and the rest of the family are enabling the sibling to continue this unhealthy behaviour they won't change or make no effort to try and get through their issues whilst everyone comes running at the drop of a hat with endless sympathy. I have a good supportive network of friends and family around me (who I have told when I'm in my right mind ) not to do all this soft hearted talking and to tell me the truth warts and all when I have episodes and they stick to that because it helps me to see that certain types of behaviour I do needs to be addressed and changed. As the saying goes sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind.

I think once you're calm speak to DH alone and tell him what you've said on here, about how you love the kind and supportive side of him but that you're concerned for his own mental health because he's always down and detached for weeks when he comes back. I like the idea a pp made of DH and sibling going to counselling together but I'd also suggest he seeks counselling himself separately from his sibling as he may feel there's things he can't say in front of them if he goes one on one he will probably be able to unburden himself properly without fear of judgement. In fact I'd have a guess that your DH secretly feels resentment and anger for his sibling for draining him but won't say it as voicing it aloud probably makes him feel selfish but hey we're all human and emotions are complicated.

Once you've discussed his issues state yours. Be honest and say before we had DC it was easier to help and be supportive but now you have a family of your own and you're prioritising your sibling over DC and that's not fair on them. What if this is still happening in say 10 years op your child may well grow up feeling angry and resentful of the fact their aunt/uncle takes priority over them in their father's eyes and believe me that's very damaging. Another suggestion that might work what if say your DH and sibling did something together like going to the gym once a week/two weeks or any other activity they enjoy that's always good for helping you feel better it gives the sibling something to look forward to and time alone with their sibling in a healthier environment. You and DH should try to do this as well as you then get time alone together. Are there any relatives or friends on your side that could help and maybe have DC one evening a week or every couple of weeks so you two can go out for time alone? I think you'd both massively benefit from it. Hope my two penny's worth helps you op and you get this sorted it out soon.

“Whilst I understand why they need to do it, it doesn't help people engage.” I agree, there has to be a better way.

“I am really shocked that people can be qualified after twelve weeks. If that's true, that's irresponsible.” This was a cpn, supposedly, who’d undertaken “additional training” I had to dig a bit as there were a LOT of issues with her but yes she’d only been doing the “course” for 12 weeks one DAY a week. I don’t believe the devisers or organisers of the course would have intended for people completing that course to be regarded as “fully trained” in IMPLEMENTING CBT. I suspect the idea was it be an introductory course for people to get an initial understanding of the process and theory behind it and as a “taster” for further training. But the nhs allowed this person on the back of minimal training to steam in and “teach” it to vulnerable people when in my opinion this woman shouldn’t have even been a cpn (she was awful in several ways, very unsympathetic, had a temper, impatient, lacked understanding etc)

I get what you’re saying about talking to therapists first to see if you like them but that’s just one aspect.

Given previous experience (of which that cpn is just one) I’m concerned that if even via the heavily regulated nhs there can be people employed with poor training/qualifications it’s hard to know what to check for with private practitioners.

There’s no standardisation of regulation, or qualifications which I find deeply disturbing when you consider the very vulnerable people they are interacting with.

It’s been suggested to me more than once that I may benefit more from a ptsd approach as while I feel the ocd is innate, it certainly has been triggered at various points in my life by traumatic events.

One person suggested a 2 pronged approach of ptsd therapies plus cbt & erp as per ocd guidelines but unfortunately they moved away from my area before I could arrange anything.

I’ve had one good therapeutic experience where I had a great nhs psychotherapist who was willing to “think outside the box” with me and create a sort of “collage” of different therapies that worked for me. I got to a point I was really well while under him, was doing well enough to be discharged. Unfortunately another trauma then occurred and set me back and again he’d moved away (he went back into research which I think is a great loss as he was a fantastic practitioner).

Not been able to replicate that success since.

Good therapists are like gold dust!

I've not read the full thread completely but it seems, as others have said, that the the brother sister relationship has turned to one of dependency on your DH as an emotional crutch.

A few things stand out.

Does your DH on a subconscious level use these visits to deal with his own grief?? Has he got over it? Somebody's who has moved on themselves should be feeling frustrated that their sibling hasn't. Is he suitably annoyed/worried at the level of grief their sibling is suffering and it doesn't seem to improve?? Him coming back and being down for days is worrying.

How is his mental health generally?

The thing is he needs to deal with it and move on himself. It seems that his life has moved on and as soon as the phone rings he is sucked back into the horror of his grief. Does he need to understand that going over is reopening a wound that is just starting to heal?? Over and over again. That's torture.

Also, this is going to have an effect on your mental health, your marriage and parenting.

You need to pick your moment -when you are both not ragged - and gently explained that you are concerned about him, and your own mental health and all of the rest. And that he needs a healthier relationship with his sibling. Next time she's down, tell her to come over for some baby cuddles, or let's go for a nice family walk so to try and interrupt the cycle.

So YABU on balance.

Graphista I completely agree that trauma can be a trigger for OCD or other anxiety-related conditions. There are definitely therapists that would consider a multi-pronged approach to be valuable. I've never understood the approach that the one-size fits all; it doesn't make any sense to me as people are complex and have differing needs and past experiences. But the NHS does appear to love to systemise things, even when it works against their consumers. I hope you continue to seek out someone, although I know it's exhausting to fight for the support you deserve.

As for the CPN, they shouldn't be anywhere near vulnerable people. The very least you should be is patient, a good listener, supportive and empathic. In addition to the quality of the relationship, evidence shows that the personal qualities of the therapist is also an important factor in the success of therapy. Then of course there is the knowledge base to understand the client's issues and the best way of working with them.

Having patients moved between therapists, though, is also really damaging for them. Continuity, and building trust over time, is also a key factor. There are definitely a lot of good therapists. But many work outside the NHS because they find the system so frustrating to work under: too many clients to give them adequate number of sessions; having to document everything to the nth degree; rigid ways of working etc, etc. The other issue is distinguishing the good from the bad.

If you go via counselling directory or psychology today, you know they have trained to a certain level, as you aren't allowed to advertise there otherwise. People usually put their qualifications on their profile, and you could search for an accredited therapist, as they have done a minimum of 450 hours practice as well as additional validation of their work. I suggest you look for an integrative therapist, who combines e.g CBT, Psychodynamic and Person-Centred therapies but who puts the relationship at the heart of the therapy (it's a clue about how they work, in terms of building trust) and who has experience at working with trauma.

Oxfordnono I really like the sound of how you work and how you are constantly looking to improve your skills.

Op. YANBU at all. I am also seen as the strong one in my family and understand what it is like to therefore have your emotional needs put last.

I am also a Psychologist (though do not specialise in trauma). I can tell you without a doubt though that these conversations are not actually helping your in-law, rather are most likely keeping them trapped. And they are clearly very damaging to your husband. I strongly recommend your husband seek professional support, but NOT with the sibling. He needs to learn how to manage his own feelings, which include an unhealthy and unhelpful desire to support his sibling beyond his capabilities. I suspect the sibling can not see how to get out of this pattern, but your husband is essentially helping them to avoid change (though clearly his motives are to help).

Your husband needs to learn how to be supportive but also maintain boundaries for his own sake. It's not either or. You can be supportive while also explaining to someone that you are not able to have this same conversation over and over and encourage them to take other steps or see things in different ways. Even by being a distraction and getting them out of the trauma headspace. Rehashing the details of the loss over and over in this way can really cement the trauma. There are other, better ways to support people.

My favourite quote (author escapes me right now) is: "we are not responsible for our trauma or the things that happen to us. But we are responsible for our own healing."