To ask DH to back off from relative for the sake of our marriage?

[WatchingMyChickenStrip]

DH has a relative who has chronic depression and anxiety which started when a traumatic event happened within the family. The relative has never really sought any help for this- they've been prescribed medication which they haven't taken, offered therapy which they never went to.

Every so often, the relative will phone DH whenever they are having a particularly bad time and need to talk. DH usually ends up going round for hours, listening, trying to help. The relative usually rehashes the tragedy, and when DH comes home he is understanably upset himself for some time afterwards.

DH and I now have a non sleeping toddler, we're both working, and life is busy. I have had a really stressful time at work recently, we've caught every bug going this winter, and on top of the lack of sleep, I'm frankly run down and struggling a bit. Relative phoned DH on Friday, and he went round for two hours. We don't make a big thing of Valentine's day, but it was DH's day to do bath and bedtime while I cooked a nice meal and we were going to have a bit of a date night at home (cheesy I know, but we have nobody to babysit in the evenings) this ended up going up the left due to the relative's crisis.

This is where I'm perhaps being a bitch. The relative seems to need DH most at times when he's likely to be thinking of other things. Right before our wedding, when the baby was a few weeks old, a few days before baby's first Christmas, that sort of thing. I'm not saying they do it deliberately, but obviously I do notice it more when it's around certain times.

So I had a bit of a row with DH when he came back, and we haven't really spoken since. I told him that he needed to consider how much energy he expends on the relative versus how much he expends on his wife, because I was struggling right before his eyes, and he didn't seem to notice because he was caught up with relative. I also said that relative was basically a bottomless pit that he would never be able to fill or fix, and that it wasn't up to DH to be their crutch. DH said this was really unfair, but when I pointed out the length of time this has all been going on, plus the amount of time he has spent round there, and how nothing has helped long term, he went quiet.

We haven't really discussed it since, and I'm not sure whether to bring it up again or whether I've been unfair. DH is a really nice man, and his care and dedication to.family and friends is one of the things that made me fall in love with him, but I feel like at the minute it's at my detriment. I am known as a strong, capable person, which most of the time I'm glad to say I am, but I feel this is now being taken for granted

YANBU.

This is a case of someone (your DH) jumping in the water to save a drowning person, and all
that happens is they both end up drowning.

People can be depressed, people can be mentally ill and also be selfish arseholes - the conditions are not mutually exclusive.

This need to keep rehashing the gory details of the relatives death with your DH is extremely unhealthy, bordering on abusive.

Ask your DH does he envisage offering this level of support in another 2, 5, 10 years time? When this relative has refused all offers of professional help?

Your DH attending counselling with this relative is a dreadful idea. He needs to go for some on his own or with you.

actually op yanbu. If this person has a partner then why arent they helping as much? If your dh is coming home impacted by this person then it is very much your business. This person could not be seeking professional help because your dh is on hand to do the 'counselling'. I would have reached my limit If it were me. Tbh it sounds like some manipulation going on.

@Butterymuffin I agree. Being the support for a mentally unwell person is draining.

This thread has really made me think in general terms, around a whole bunch of things as well as the Ops general situation, which is tough and obviously needs addressing for the best interests of everyone involved.

The "draining" issue has been referenced and the context is vitally important, as just mentioned.

I can be a bit of a "soft touch" - I feel very sorry for people suffering for whatever reason. I have had to acknowledge that sometimes I may be trying to help for egotistical reasons - as a child I experienced domestic turbulence and learned to try and help and support others, while at times, through no fault of their own, my parents were unable to see my needs. Putting others first became a default - I bucked against it in adolescence but was quickly brought "back into line".

In adulthood, I can see a pattern of relationships where validation meant trying to put my partners before myself even in unhealthy dynamics. I am better now at setting boundaries, but finding myself stuck in hopeless situations can still sneak up on me due to the huge variables in them - because I "cope" so well for the main part, it shocks and destabilises people when I do try and take a stand for myself. I can now grit my teeth and set up boundaries but internally the struggle with guilt and feeling that I am failing people is massive.

Supporting people with mental health issues is a minefield, for both the helper and the focus of said help. As has been covered eloquently in a number of posts, at what point does support become enabling? At what point does it become co-dependence? At what point might one be doing more harm than good in an already volatile and sensitive situation? At what point do you yourself fall prey to poor mental health?

It is incredibly difficult to navigate these experiences while the current, much needed conversation is going on on social media and in the public domain about being supportive and removing the stigma from mental health issues, when if you question anything with regard to the current zeitgeist you are accused of being selfish, not caring, not understanding etc. But these conversations desperately need to be had because in some - hopefully rarer cases - mental health issues can be used as a shield for behaviour that would otherwise be classed as abusive in the extreme. There is of course the argument that exhibiting this sort of behaviour if apparently otherwise "healthy" is an issue in itself pointing to a "condition" - how much does a "supportive" person have to deal with before they too are suffering?

Human beings are extremely complex creatures - we crave simple answers but they will never be forthcoming as the world changes more and more and different pressures are brought to bear. We should, of course, strive to be caring and supportive, but if only half of the population can be, and it is expected that the other half will bear the burden without complaint or expression, it is a recipe for disaster.

iIfeel for you op it must be hard and your dh must feel hes stuck

but i do think his sibling needs professional help now-its not fair on your dh who has been through this aswell to offload when they feel down then ecyour dh to just deal with it which he clearly doesnt

this has been going for years and isnt healthy

YANBU. I think it would be a good idea for your husband to seek counselling to support himself as he comes home traumatized for days afterwards. He needs help and an outsider may be more able to help him see that at this moment. They may also be able to help him with boundaries.

Yanbu. Relative needs counselling. This is unfair to DH and your family.

A good Counsellor will know how to break cycle instead of going round and round forever. Eg research on PTSD shows that continually retelling/reliving the memory is actually harmful as it constantly recreates a new fresh traumatic memory.

Perhaps relative does not want to ‘get better’ and is clinging to the past. They need help to move on.

OP Your husband cannot sacrifice you and your marriage to support his sibling without them trying to help themselves

This.

Tricky

I understand your dh’s compassion and concern and to be quite honest it doesn’t sound as if the relative is being overly demanding to me. 6 weeks is a fair amount of time between “crises” and even a fortnight isn’t too bad.

I also suffer with mental illness and am extremely grateful to those who provide emotional support when needed.

WRT the relatives resistance to treatment that’s not uncommon and is likely part of their pathology, nobody WANTS to keep feeling the way they do.

But meds can be scary (mh meds are not to be taken lightly and while they can be very helpful they also have quite a high risk of making things worse depending on exact meds) has dh discussed with them why they don’t want to take the meds prescribed? Have they asked dr or whoever to prescribe something else if what they’ve been prescribed is “strong” or has major side effects they might be wary of?

In terms of therapy, wouldn’t work anyway if they’re not at a point where they’re “ready” to engage. But again yes dh could discuss concerns with them and perhaps even advocate for them with their hcp in explaining concerns.

Does the relative know about/use relevant Helpline’s?

There are quite a few. I don’t get on particularly well with Samaritans as they aren’t really well trained in my experience and tend to just basically go “Oh you poor thing that must be so hard” which I don’t think actually helps!

But there are others both mh and perhaps ones particularly geared to whatever the triggering incident was?

I had great support from the miscarriage association when that was still very raw for me.

It might also be useful for your dh to access support of his own, even professional therapists “debrief” themselves and maintain their own mh.

The other people in this relatives life may not be as patient or understanding as your dh.

It’s really very subjective who you can connect with in a positive way on these matters.

I have a HUGE family and lots of lovely friends but by no means are they all the right people to understand and help.

My best friend is absolutely lovely and has been there for me on occasion but she doesn’t really “get it” not having suffered mental illness herself nor having anyone else in her life who does. She’s very kind but her ideas of what might “help” are quite outdated.

Relatives I was actually very close to as a vibrant, outgoing and confident youngster have turned out to be the worst options for this as, again, not having experienced anything like it themselves (in 2 cases they’ve literally never been ill with ANYTHING beyond a cold in their whole lives!) they just can’t relate. They sympathise and are kind in their way, but they’re unable to provide support.

And some people can actively make things worse! When I had my first major breakdown I had a few people I previously thought of as good friends who were very impatient with me and at times cruel.

It’s definitely one of those situations where you find out who your true friends are.

A few other people who until that point were really only “acquaintances” really came through for dd and I at a very difficult time. From just sitting talking with me, to giving lifts, fetching shopping and even taking dd out to play and on one occasion one literally sat with me all night awake as mh team had let me down and I was in a state. They just sat with me chatting nonsense and helping me do breathing exercises when I was panicky. Will forever be grateful to them for that! Absolutely priceless people like that.

In terms of timing, could it be those occasions are particularly difficult?

Eg For people who’ve lost a child certain “family” occasions/holidays can be especially difficult.

Anniversary of the event can be too.

“No question of suicide or being admitted or anything like that.” What are you basing that on? Some aren’t suicidal...until they are!

“Relative works and has a family so is fairly high functioning.” Again doesn’t mean they don’t need the support.

“Their partner works odd shifts, and they are very protective over their family time when the partner is home, DH is never called up then”
But that makes sense! They’re calling on dh when he’s available and their partner isn’t.

Family therapy or therapy with dh would be a good idea.

It is a case of getting the balance right. It’s great your dh supporting this person but he needs to also support you and maintain his own mh.

often these episodes do happen at a time when the attention is off them - weddings, birthdays, that kind of event - can often trigger a sudden episode that puts them front and centre again. They may not be doing it deliberately, but it has happened so often that it's not a coincidence IMO.

or they lost a family member in traumatic circumstances and those sort of occasions trigger their trauma because it's a reminder of the loss? My MiL struggles at weddings, christmas etc because she lost her father and one of her brothers traumatically and the occasions when the family gather is a direct reminder of those empty places at the table.

I'm not so convinced that therapy together is the correct answer. It would be legitimatising the fact that this relative leans on your dh and may not work. I've had 18 months of psychotherapy and 6 months of cbt for trauma. It didn't work, possibly because I wasn't in the right place for it to work. I had far too much anger and resented every single second I had to spend there talking to them. I went into it thinking it was a waste of time and it was, possibly because that's how I felt.

I think it's very easy to say "engage with professionals" but that doesn't mean they'll get anything useful out of it. My consultant psychiatrist tells me I'm beautiful, that he wants to fix me and prescribes whatever I ask for (currently sleeping pills) but he hasn't done anything helpful.

What input does their partner have? Do they know about the traumatic event and where are they when your dh has to run to the rescue?

Also has your dh had therapy himself to come to terms with what happened? Even though he's "dealing" with it ok on the surface, he might benefit.

“My consultant psychiatrist tells me I'm beautiful, that he wants to fix me and prescribes whatever I ask for (currently sleeping pills)“

I hope there’s some additional context for this, because he sounds completely, extravagantly unprofessional by NHS standards. Are you in the US?

Nobody WANTS to keep feeling the way they do

That's not always true though. It's a bit of a generalisation. Some people prefer to stay stuck on an unconscious level as it can confer certain benefits that are more important at that moment than getting better, like: not having to take responsibility; not having to take risks or make changes; getting desired attention; not having to risk failure or success.

Once these are worked through with a good professional therapist, then the much more tangible benefits derived from no longer being stuck become clear. But a relative can't help someone work through these things, even if they're a therapist themselves; it needs someone both trained and objective. This is not about depression, by the way, it's about being stuck.

I agree with PPs, the OPs DH may inadvertently be doing both of them harm but consistently rehashing the trauma. I second the DH having some therapy to help him work through possible issues around possible survivor's guilt, potentially feeling powerless to support his relative, his fears around setting boundaries with his relative, or any other issues that might be contributing to this seemingly unhealthy dynamic.

by not but*

@Greenandpleasanter

You have just expressed very well what went through my head when I saw that comment. Change is scary, the unknown is scary, the fear of failure if a change isn't immediately fruitful is scary. We subconsciously are very invested in what we know / have already experienced / feel we can deal with, hence the looping...... coupled with a fear of other people's feelings or judgement if we don't change successfully it's easy to see why people can't move on without alot of support and encouragement, which a professional might be able to facilitate but a friend or family member may not.

That might be true for some dinosaur but unfortunately not IME - it's about the person, not the missing one.

In this case the partner is a 'pat on the arm' person according to the OP, whereas the OP's DH will sit for hours and listen, repeatedly, every few weeks (it's six weeks maximum and usually more frequently which a lot of people seem to be missing). But it's too much to expect of someone who is also suffering in connection with the same event, and it affects them badly each time.

@Greenandpleasanter

I’d also add that I was absolutely terrified of therapy before I started - terrified that if this was the state I was in when I was frantically repressing all my memories and controlling my emotions as hard as I could, what was I going to be like confronting my trauma? I was terrified that my emotions would be uncontrollable, and I would go mad.

I’d also had some frankly harmful volunteer rape crisis counselling shortly after the rape that re-traumatised me (they literally made me close my eyes and try to remember exactly how it felt to be smothered to unconsciousness, and were then surprised when I had a panic attack and literally couldn’t breathe. Then told me my time was up, and left me to compose myself in a GUM clinic waiting room full of men). So my expectations were not high.

But actual specialist PTSD therapy is nothing like that, they do not let you get upset at all - any wobbly voice or tears in eyes and we stopped and talked about other things until I was calm.

I’m really sorry you’re going through this, you’re not in an easy position.

I’m sure that your dh’s sibling does need a lot of help. But that help simply CANNOT be given when it is detrimental to his own mental health. Instead of helping the sibling they’re both just drowning.

I say this as someone with chronic depression. Mercifully I have support from friends and family but I am very aware that I have an impact on them and their own mental health. You can’t pour from an empty cup, and it sounds like your dh’s cup is bone dry

What a difficult situation OP

Reading your posts it would appear to me that your DH's sibling has, via this mechanism of regular graphic unloading to your DH, discovered a way of managing their grief.

In doing so, there is little incentive perhaps to seek professional support because the current set up works in so far that in between these episodes they are able to function reasonably well.

This in itself might not be overly problematic (though far from optimal) aside from the very serious impact it's having on your DH and yourself.

What's happening is that your DH and yourself are subsidising their mental heath at the expense of your own.

Part of the issue is that this has been going on for years. It's become normal because prior to having children you were in a position not only to look after yourself but also your DH.

This constant "re-traumatising" of your DH is extremely unhealthy. It might have become "normal" and "expected" but it's very damaging.

The reality is that this set up was always unsustainable, having a child has just changed the dynamic in so far you cannot be expected to forgo support and continue to "shore up" the family both physically and mentally whilst struggling yourself - but you seem to be the only person whose aware of this shift in circumstances because frankly it's business as usual for your DH and his sibling whilst you're the person being impacted.

It is of course not wrong to want to help people with MH issues. To offer to support and kindness but posters suggesting that your being unfair about these visits are imho missing the point.

The issue here is not so much the time he spends with his sibling but the toll it takes on his family for days/weeks afterwards and in addition the timing of these episodes.

Whilst I appreciate that key dates will obviously be triggering, I can help but detect a degree of selfishness in calling a sibling away from their spouse for hours on Valentines Day evening and the truth is that people with MH are not exempt from selfish behaviour.

I think you absolutely need to break this dynamic for everyone involved. The sibling is not going to get better whilst your DH enables a coping strategy to the detriment of his MH and yours.

Your child does not deserve to be brought up in a house where their father is bed bound by trauma and/or withdrawn for days on a very regular basis.

I'd strong suggest therapy for your DH to help him understand that he can't help his sibling in this way indefinitely and to understand the impact of the current dynamic.

You can ask about joint therapy but I think the way they process their grief so differently would suggest that may be unlikely to work as their needs are different.

Fundamentally pp nailed it with the analogy that your DH needs to put on his own life jacket before trying to rescue his sibling, because as stands everyone is drowning.

It's really admirable your DH is supporting them. But from experience he's doing them a dis-service if he doesn't insist they seek help. I had regular sessions like this with a friend & in the end it was repetitive & bringing me down too & a pattern that was very destructive:they were 'stuck' in that event & the trauma . . I insisted they got help & after a few sessions where they were deliberately mute & very resistant, (seeing it as shameful & an admission of weakness) they did find it really helped.

Christmascarcass thanks for your feedback. While being horrified about your experience with rape crisis, I'm so pleased you've found effective help to deal with your trauma. Out of interest, was this privately or through an organisation? It makes perfect sense that you re-organise your traumatic memories by bringing you to a state of calm, rather than re-experiencing them in a state of stress and emotional overload.

Exactly OldQueen.

Some people prefer to stay stuck on an unconscious level as it can confer certain benefits that are more important at that moment than getting better, like: not having to take responsibility; not having to take risks or make changes; getting desired attention; not having to risk failure or success.

I think this is an excellent point.

There is a general assumption that everyone wants to get well.

In my experience that's not always the case.

I've posted before about a family member with anxiety and how, in trying to support them the family effectively started to enable behaviours in such a way that was counter productive.

Taking a step back it became clear that this person felt their MH issues were central to their ability to exert control over family relationships.

The "benefit" of being unwell, was far greater (in their perception in the grips of their illness) than the prospect of being well.

Being well meant a loss of the "tools" by which they had conducted their close relationships and they couldn't see how else this might be accomplished.

There may well be an element to this wrt the siblings dependency on your DH in so far their method of grieving is closely tied with being able to control the relationship and their status within it.

@Watchingmychickenstrip How are you?

DeRigeur your post makes a lot of sense

Christmascarcass I'm so sorry to hear what you went through, but so glad you've had so much success in getting better.

I'm OK. Reading through the thread again. Keeping quiet so I can absorb it all before I can approach DH. I see the logic of not going for the joint therapy but I do think DH needs to go and talk to someone. I'm going to give it a few days, and as a PP says, speak to him calmly and not at a time when the after effects of talking to his sibling are ongoing.

I feel that I know how to talk to him about his own emotions and need to safeguard his own wellbeing, plus potentially seeing a professional, but i don't know yet what, or if, I'm going to say about my own feelings/needs. I feel that discussion should come at a later date if necessary, and if in time DH learns to balance the amount of energy he gives his sibling, then I suppose it will naturally follow on that I'll feel happier/more supported with the situation? I don't know, I feel that I can't burden DH and the focus needs to be on his setting boundaries so he feels better about it all, not worrying about me as well.

“Some people prefer to stay stuck on an unconscious level”

I disagree.

I don’t think it’s about wanting to stay unwell, to stay depressed/anxious.

It’s being afraid to try something that you know will be hard, distressing even and which may not only not work but actually make things even worse.

I’ve been ill to some degree for over 10 years since first dx (although with hindsight myself and others close to me agree it’s likely I’ve had the ocd all my life, and much research bears this out that it’s a condition you’re born with).

I’ve been on several different anti depressants, anti anxiety meds and even tranquillisers at various points. I’ve undertake loads of therapy, done all the “homework” religiously and am yet to find anything that really works for any length of time.

I’m currently the worst I’ve ever been and yet I’m still getting even hcps accusing me of not wanting to be well!

I’d love to be well I’d love to be living a normal life rather than a mere existence.

But NOBODY has yet properly engaged WITH ME to try and achieve a state of relative wellness (ocd is incurable).

Instead they repeatedly expect me to somehow change my brains chemistry and formation to fit with THEIR expectations of what I should be able to do/cope with.

I understand my condition incredibly well and have researched it and the treatments for it thoroughly (some hcps think merely understanding the nature of the disease ie that they’re “only” thoughts and feelings is enough to resists the compulsions) I’ve had more than one consultant psychiatrist note that my understanding & knowledge likely exceeds that of the people supposedly helping me.

It’s also the lack of resources.

The ideal treatment for ocd (and I’m sure this is likely true for other mental illnesses too) requires CONCURRENTLY:

Being on the right meds

Receiving good quality CBT therapy encompassing aspects erp (I’ve supposedly had cbt 3 times which actually made me worse. It was I genuinely believe because the people delivering it weren’t actually properly trained or qualified to do so)

Receiving home support to maintain the objectives of the cbt, to do the “homework”

None of which has happened for me or in fact any other sufferers of ocd I know.

It’s actually very short sighted and a false economy not providing the right treatment for mental illness I think, as many people currently unable to work because of mental illness likely would be able to work if they received the right treatment ASAP.

Unfortunately the quality, availability and accessibility to good mh support in this country at the moment is woefully lacking.

I hope there’s some additional context for this, because he sounds completely, extravagantly unprofessional by NHS standards. Are you in the US?

It's possibly a whole other thread but yes, NHS and I'm in the UK. At first I gave him the benefit of the doubt thinking he meant "personality". It quickly became obvious he didn't.

I see the logic of not going for the joint therapy but I do think DH needs to go and talk to someone

From what you've described definitely. The benefit of individual therapy for him might be that it highlights the unhealthiness of his relationship with his sibling. Having someone who isn't you point that out to him may be very useful. Dh tried to tell me for years that my mum was a factor in my illness (constantly putting me down, telling me I was pathetic for having issues after being raped etc) but it took hearing it from a stranger to make it sink in.