To not be sure about DH

[Apirateslifeforme]

A few months ago we had a bit of a scary situation, I dont know how to explain it all properly, but I'll do my best.
My concern is that I am worried DH is unable to protect himself or DD.

I'll also preface with, I have extreme generalised anxiety and OCD. I'm pretty much agorophobic.i dont tend to go to town, I do maybe 3 or 4 times a year at most. I'm saying this because it may have some bearing on how I'm feeling (I'll also point out I am on medication and I am seeing a counsellor. I'm trying to work through my issues)

So we went to town one day, I had to go because there was something I'd ordered that DH needed. We were having a fairly good time.
It was later in the day, we had been to get the item we needed, we had popped into boots, had a coffee and a chat, then started to head towards the car.
I saw a security guard hanging around, and a stall owner looking at a young couple, quite concerned.
I sort of noticed and thought it strange but shook it out of my head as nothing strange, maybe me always looking for something to be wrong.

As we were paying for our parking, a man comes up to us, hes asking how to pay for parking (our town gives a few hours free parking on Saturdays and sundays, so we didnt have to pay but you still have to put the coin in)
But hes got a wallet out. I say you've just got to put the coin in the machine, even if you dont have to pay.
We turn and take a few steps, he follows. He says hes done it. He hasn't because he moved with us. And he starts talking about security being up his arse all day.
I move again, and he gets between me and 11 year old daughter. He puts his hand in his pocket and drags out a handful of nuts. He offers DD them. I dont know why, but I was very stern without even thinking I said NO. DD put her hands in her pocket. Shes at an age where shes going to shrug me off if i try to grab her, but i pulled her closer to me as i again stepped away.
We were waiting for a lift, and as we step forward to the lift he positioned himself to go with us, and I'm thinking I dont want to get in a lift with this man, there was a bad feeling that came over me, and I thought its probably quite innocent. I'm probably overreacting, but I cant go upto the carpark with this man. We park on the highest floor of the carpark because its quiet. No way am I risking ending up there with this man.
So just before we step In, DH is in the lift by the way, hes oblivious to what's going on.
I say, shit, I need to go to poundland.
The man turns on his heel and says me too, steps out of the lift, and as I make my way past, I realise security is hanging around, I get close enough that she will hear me, and I say to him
"Can you stop following us, we dont know you. You're making me uncomfortable"
He replies, no, I'm coming too.
I say, still quite loudly, you're a stranger, leave us alone.
Security guard lunges toward him, and they disappear into a lift.
I say to DH that was weird, DD says, my legs felt like concrete when we were going to get in the lift. He was weird. DH says, yeah maybe, so what did we need from poundland.

I say, I didn't, I just needed to be away from him. I could've accepted that maybe he was a bit awkward in social situations or that I was being over cautious until he got out of the lift to follow us, and when I told him he was making me uncomfortable his response wasnt, I'm sorry and leaving us alone. He was so close to us. I've never had this feeling before.

So we get in the lift and I'm trying to not make it into a big thing. I'm sort of thinking, I'm a bit weird myself, maybe he was a bit weird on the other end of the scale. Maybe he thinks that's how you make friends, I'm not going to panic about it.

We get to our car, and there are two women who've got a flat tyre. Hit a kerb on the way up the carpark. So I say to my husband, we should try and help. (Full disclosure, DDog was in the car, as he often is, he can take being left in the car, but not at home, so the boots fully decked out as his "safe space"
As were trying to prize off the tyre- its stuck for some reason, DH and now another man are trying to use brute force to get the wheel off. Loads of noise, dog hasn't made a peep. All of a sudden the dog is going ballistic. I explain the dogs safe place is the car, hes got a bed and toys and everything In the back. He somehow knows were going back to the car.
Before I finish explaining, the man is right beside us. One of tbe women turns to me and mouths she thinks that hes drunk. As the other man speaks to him, I grab DDs hand and go to security downstairs. Just seems beyond weird, hes now talking to two women who are stuck. Security then tells me hes been following women to their cars all day, and trying to force young women to eat his food and get them to leave the town with him.

We go back up with security, and hes trying to break into cars,
He then comes upto me and says security is deciding whether I'm taking him to my home tonight, I told him to leave us alone and he wanted an explanation why I didnt want him around us, then he tried to grab my daughter by the arm, telling her that her mother is crazy, and if she have him a minute to explain they could be friends.

She is 11. This man was 25 or so.

The police were called, not by us but security. I don't even know when, but DH witnessed all of this, and didnt say even one word.

Later at home, he said that he thought the man might've been after the phone we picked up In town. No real concern for DDs safety, didnt pick up on half of what happened.

Its left me feeling like he would completely miss if something like that ever happened again. It freaked me out because it seemed to me like he was only talking to me because I was almost the only thing in the way of him getting to my daughter and DH literally had no concern at all.

How can I trust him to protect her?

I know some people will only pick up on the danger that they are in, and this man made both me and DDs stomachs feel like they were falling out. I feel anxious a lot, but this was on a complete different level, and the barks that my dog let out, I've never in my life heard anything like it. It was a pitch I've never heard from a dog in my life.

What can I do? Am I being U to be worried he wont protect her when hes out because hes just going not realise when theres danger?

If I were coming home at 1am, he would want to pick me up.
Not so concerned about a stranger messaging DD online, he just wouldn't see the risk.

I didnt need to tell DH what was happening, he was with us, but oblivious. We were together, quite close to each other, certainly enough to have heard what was going on if he was interested.

I was also quite loud when he followed us from the lift, for example, about 10 foot maybe from the lift are machines to pay for parking, behind these were where the security guard was, I walked past the machine, close enough for the security guard to hear, and there were some other people.

I felt that was the most "safe" option, close enough for others to hear my raised voice, the security guard was who I wanted to hear, but ultimately anyone would do. I wanted someone to realise what was happening.
I also realised this was the best opportunity we had to get distance between him and us. I thought that I did the right thing. I was aiming for standing my ground without being confrontational, clear that I didnt know him and he was not part of our "group" and I wanted him to stop following us, which he was. I'm really analysing this now.

By the way, to the person who recommended "the gift of fear" excellent recommendation.
Thank you.
Currently listening to it on Audible.

Not so concerned about a stranger messaging DD online, he just wouldn't see the risk.

This is really concerning OP, I can't see how he's oblivious to this with so many stories in the news over the last decade about the risks of strangers grooming and targeting children on the internet. It seems unfathomable he wouldn't see the risk of this.

You sound paranoid. You will transfer your anxiety to your daughter. I would let hubby take DD in future.

The women with the flat tire could have been told that it didn't suit.You really needed to be moving on and getting out of the situation, apart from that you behaved exactly as you should have.You picked up on the tension etc and your husband didn't but I wouldn't overthink it.

Maybe it’s your DH that needs to listen to the “Gift of Fear?”

I don’t know OP. Presumably you’ve been with him for a long time?

My DH is possibly a bit too much the other way. Your post struck a chord with me because wuite recently, we were in a lift in a car park and this man started randomly shouting at me about my parking (he mistook me for someone else, but he was calling me a “slut” and was clearly unhinged) and DH put him in an arm lock and took him to the Waitrose security people. I did feel a bit embarrassed tbh, but it was scary because it was so sudden and random and he was right up in my face. You never know what might happen because so many people are loose cannons in the street.

Another time, two men threw a glass bottle at the living room window and cracked it when I was sitting just on the other side and feeding the baby and DH chased them and caught one and had him face down in the snow in the street. The neighbours got involved and it was a big scene.

There have been so many other things, but because he’s so reactive I worry he’ll get in trouble - eg if he thinks someone is stealing his car again in the night he goes out with a massive kitchen knife in the back of his trousers and I’ve told him he could also be arrested for this if the police showed and its better to just let them take the car (it’s on a tracker anyway). Not sure how the law would say for in that one?

*Law would stand

DHs view is that he was ok throughout his teen years, he met a lot of people from online. Some of those relationships were quite questionable to be honest (he wasnt protected by his parents IMHO)
And he just views DD would also be ok.
His reasoning to that is, whilst I might've been groomed online, i had a different upbringing, DD isnt vulnerable in the same way.
I think that's him just not understanding the difference between being a teenage boy, and a teenage girl to a certain extent.

Well obviously any child is at risk from being groomed online.

The school might well do talks on it - maybe he should go to one?

It sounds like your husband hasn't realised that the nature of the internet has changed drastically since he was using it.
The experience of a man using the internet will not be the experience of a woman or young girl online.
He really needs that drummed home.
It doesn't sound like he takes her online safety seriously at all and that's a real worry.

He just doesn't grasp the internet issue. It's just regarded as a part of our thing, it's where I'm stricter and I make the rules with the internet usage.

You sound paranoid. You will transfer your anxiety to your daughter. I would let hubby take DD in future.

I hope this is a joke. Don't pay any attention to this post, OP, you don't sound paranoid at all. And you handled the situation very well (unlike your husband).

To the above: are you kidding me?

1. Strange man approaches OP and her family, and asks about parking. Gets his answer, but still lingers on. Offers OP's child some food which is declined, but he still lingers on.
2. Tries to grab the child by her hand - how in the world is this normal? Would you try grabbing strangers by their hands in the street for absolutely no reason?
3. Tries to go in the lift with OP. When OP decides to leave the lift, he also 'changes his mind'.
4. OP goes to Poundland, he follows (because he obviously suddenly remembered that he really needs to go to Poundland too, of course).
5. To spare any doubt, OP LOUDLY asks him to stop following them and leave them alone. Ok, for the arguments' sake, let's say OP is a paranoid nutter and that man is perfectly normal decent regular guy. So a regular normal guy is walking to the shop and some nutter woman starts shouting at him to stop following her. I can pretty much guarantee any person (man or woman) would try to go as far as possible from the crazy woman, not wanting to cause a scene, ESPECIALLY if it was a man. He wouldn't want other people thinking he IS following her. This man, however, doesn't. Instead, after being clearly asked to back off, he says 'No, I'm coming too'.
6. Security gets involved. Tells OP that this man was following women, giving them food and asking to come with him all day (yep, that's absolutely normal). 6)The man vanishes. Yet he comes back to OP once AGAIN. Why on earth would a normal person do that?

And yet OP is paranoid here??

He just doesn't grasp the internet issue. It's just regarded as a part of our thing, it's where I'm stricter and I make the rules with the internet usage.

Being strict is totally different to being safe.

Being strict - confiscating a phone to follow through on the threat of doing so if bad behaviour continues

Being safe - making every effort to educate your child on internet safety, be aware as far as possible of their online communications, assessing risks and stepping in when any communications are inappropriate

The example I gave of being strict is a choice of parenting style, the example I gave of being safe is good and necessary parenting.

You simply cannot be sure that the other person has a knife or another sort or weapon, and is ready to use it when a man is antagonizing them. A guy I went to uni with was stabbed because he tried to stop the man pickpocketing a woman on the train.

You did the right thing by calling security.

All I can say is where DH is concerned, it's me being strict to make rules that he does not.
For example, taking her phone overnight, not allowing her accounts on Facebook, tiktok, Instagram and Twitter.
She is allowed WhatsApp, but she is only allowed to speak with people she knows, people from her old school (she moved up In September) people that she currently attends school with, and us and her grandparents, and the parents of some of her closer friends.
If their phones die whilst they're out, they use each others phones to contact parents etc.
If he had it his way, those rules wouldn't exist.

Also, we have both been to the school internet meetings, DH just believes that DD deserves the trust to make her own choices because she has been educated on how to protect herself, I think that freedom has to come slower. For her safety only, but I think we need to keep some rules and ease off them over time vs well you've got a phone, you're on your own with it and no opportunity to talk about who shes talking to etc.

If he had it his way, those rules wouldn't exist

DH just believes that DD deserves the trust to make her own choices

Then he's making absolutely shit parenting decisions. She is 11. She was at primary school until recently.

You trust a child to make age appropriate choices, not all choices.

I don't know how this doesn't worry you more or make you angry with him.

I would see him as a poor parent with very questionable piss poor risk assessment ability. Not even just based on your original post, more so on your subsequent ones.

I feel for you because he doesn't sound nasty so you probably feel mean for having a go at him but he does sound absolutely clueless, naive and does not have the ability to protect your daughter adequately.

Do talk to him again OP, rather than bottling this up.

There's a film called Force Majeure which is about something a bit like this and the way it impacts a marriage ... In your position I might try and watch it together and then discuss it. It could be a way into discussing how you feel.

It is annoying to me, and its worrying.
Increasingly so because I'm seeing that not only am I continually reiterating the boundaries in our house with my DD, I then have to go over them again with DH, often when DD is in bed, because I'm not trying to stop her from having a life, but I'm also not trying to put her in the anxious position of being exposed to things that are inappropriate for her. It's hard enough to figure out what's best for her let alone having to continually make the point that something is not appropriate.
Like clockwork I say, if you need to lie about your age to agree to a websites terms of service, you are not allowed on it. All for DH to be like, pirate, you're too strict, her friends are on there.

I do feel really mean, cos hes lovely, but I feel like he lives in another world and it causes a lot of yes/no situations.
I never thought I'd be this way, but I'm serious about trying to do what's best for DD.
A lot of it has been put down to my childhood being different to his, and even my views being different because of OCD/anxiety, and after that's said he sort of shuts off.

I will also see if I can find that film. I'd give anything a go that could get us on the same page.

I also text him a few minutes before someone said that he should read the gift of fear. I'd said "as a dad of a daughter you should read this" he can use my audible account when I'm finished with it. I like that it points out the difference between mens and womens views.
Men at the core fear women will laugh at them.
Women at the core fear men will kill them.

That's quite a powerful statement

I think that, as you said earlier, one of the really really good things to come out of this is that YOU came out of the situation a STAR.

You, despite feeling you can't, dealt with the situation in a safe manner without overreacting. You behaved appropriately and kept yourself and your daughter safe. You set an example to your daughter that it is good to act on intuition and that you don't just 'stay nice' to avoid offending anyone or to avoid 'making a scene'. You set an example to your daughter that asking for help from the right people is the right thing to do AND you demonstrated that despite anxiety it is possible to stay calm but be assertive and get appropriate help.

You should be reflecting on how well you handled the situation, how you didn't let your anxiety win and how you demonstrated appropriate behaviour to your daughter.

YANBU!

Your DH seriously needs to improve his awareness of potentially threatening situations. I’m wondering if it might be worth your while investigating if there’s any eg self defence courses in your area? Police and councils put them on usually.

They don’t just teach people what to do once they KNOW they’re in a dangerous situation they teach people what to be aware of.

I found that shocking to read because almost all the men I know would have responded to ME (as the mum in the situation) clearly being wary of the guy and would have told him in no uncertain terms to back the fuck off!

But I have to say in addition that security in the mall (?) were also extremely lax. We have a small shopping mall in my local town, it’s a deprived area with high unemployment and all the issues that can create and the security there are actually known for not fucking about! People who break the rules are pretty much instantly thrown out and if someone is acting suspiciously police are called and they do attend pretty promptly as the security team there aren’t idiots and wouldn’t call them without cause.

A guy like this in the scenario you describe would have been already talking to police before you and your dd even encountered him because they’d have called police for repeatedly following women to cars.

“He said if anything more would have happened, then he would have stepped in.” At what point would he have stepped in?!! Prevention is far better than dealing with the results of an actual crime/assault!

The police reaction you describe says to me he may be known to them, perhaps has JUST managed (so far) either to JUST stay right side or law or not been caught yet but they don’t trust him.

I’ve stood hands on hips and shouted at men following me/dd to “GET LOST! Or I’m calling the police!” For FAR less than this man did and I don’t regret that for a second! At worst I embarrassed someone who was unaware they were acting inappropriately and at best I scared off potential threats.

Your dh really needs someone to speak to him who can get through to him that whilst your anxiety etc may make you hyper aware of threats (I have ocd, agoraphobia and anxiety too) he is way too far the other way, particularly as you say for the father of a daughter (albeit stepdaughter he still has a responsibility to protect her)

You need to address this ASAP as when dd is older she may well play you off against each other in order to get away with more risky behaviour herself.

He really needs to get a clue! Possibly even counselling if he’s been “trained” to accept certain situations as “normal”.

This thread has actually reminded me of a conversation I had with my hv when I first disclosed I was a survivor of csa “officially”. I got it in my head that the authorities might think I couldn’t protect dd even though I was very protective of her. The hv said she had no such concerns with me following our discussions. She pointed out this isn’t always the case, that some victims have been so abused, so manipulated that they think the abuse is normal and think nothing of leaving their dc with those that abused them unsupervised.

I’m getting a strong sense that your dh may fall into the latter category and there may be more to his past experiences than he is aware of or has told you.

Yes most men have a REDUCED awareness of the threat to girls/women as they don’t ever really experience it on a daily basis themselves but they do know it exists.

It scarily sounds like he wouldn’t have done much at all unless this dodgy man had actually attempted to abduct your dd touch her inappropriately - by which point the damage to your dds sense of security is done!

I honestly think your dh needs therapy and a lot of education to wise up here.

@graphista, this is all my point exactly.
At the point I was telling him to leave us alone the first time, i thought if he was a normal guy, with slightly off boundaries, hes going to be embarrassed, and hes going to run in the opposite direction. I'd be horrified if someone said, listen mate, you need to leave us alone. I'd be bright red and oh, I'm sorry! I was just trying to be friendly and I've not meant to concern you! And off in the other way I would go. (This is purely just a thought cos speaking to people really isnt a strong point for me so it's quite unlikely!)

But I've been worrying the same about DH. I dont know if there could be anything in his past. I just literally think that hes been so sheltered he has no concerns, whereas I haven't so everything is a concern.

It sounds like you and I have a lot of similar issues, I'm a CSA survivor too. This is possibly why this has been such a sticking point with DH.

Op I can honestly say you did amazingly well and I can't think of anyone I would rather have on my side in a frightening situation like this than you. You remained calm and collected and thought through your options in a very scary and unpredictable situation. People like this shouldn't be allowed out. It sounds like the police know who he is already.

Gift of fear is a good plan I am glad you are reading it.

I can understand why you feel the way you do. My DH and I have very different 'confrontational styles' in such situations. I am very direct, assertive and usually very quick to react to perceived danger. He is calmer and tries to avoid direct confrontation by diffusing the tension. We had situations when it was just the two of us where I felt he should have reacted more strongly and wasn't sure if he was aware of how unpleasant/dangerous something was. However, once I spoke to him about it - it turns out he was very much aware and just as quickly as I was, but he opted to distract/deescalate the person by being friendly/chatty/ignoring, led by the idea that his reaction would have escalated things further and brought out more dangerous circumstances for me. He also, rightly, pointed out that men react differently to other men's aggressive posture than to women's assertion and that it is more likely things will escalate if a man tells another man to 'back off', especially if the one asked to back off is drunk. Your DH may feel the same, its worth having an in-depth conversation with him about his attitude in tense situations with drunk or for other reasons unpleasant people.