Is this too explicit for Year 7, 11 years old

[Sarah510]

So, my ds is doing some stuff on online grooming at school. Apparently they were shown a video, where a boy made friends with a stranger online, and then got tricked into meeting him, and the man sexually abused him (this wasn't actually shown in the film, it was explained in a voice-over, just that the boy was "sexually abused") and then the boy was murdered by being stabbed in the neck.

One of the girls in the class was so upset she had to leave the classroom.

Now they have to do a 'play' about it in groups. DS has a lot of questions about sexual abuse - and I've answered them, but am I too 'old-fashioned' to think this is a bit too explicit for 11 year olds. He is constantly worrying now about strangers, and would they stab him in the neck and if he was sexually abused what would they do to him. I answered as simply as I can, that it's when grown ups want to do sexual things with children. He wanted more info, so I had to go into more detail. I've always said to him to be careful online and monitor him very closely and he has a couple of friends that he plays games with sometimes, but he doesn't have a phone and just plays on our ipad or simple stuff like that. I know he's in secondary now, but is it a bit much or is it normal...

Sorry only just saw the second half of your comment.

You can teach children to be safe online in primary school. You don’t need explicit content to teach children how to stay safe. And as my previous link shows, films with explicit content don’t reduce abuse anyway.

I made my year 6 watch most of it.
They are growing up in a different world to us.
What happened to breck was utterly horrific, that’s why it’s hard hitting. It could have been anyone’s child.
@mumofbreck thank you for doing what you’ve done. You’ve opened conversations in my house, and although it’s no guarantee of safety, Talking is all we’ve got. I am so sorry it took the loss of your wonderful son for the guidance to come in.

@Beebie26 I’m well aware of Dr Taylor’s work. I can see the arguments on both sides. But I’m still in favour of early education.

When I was 13 I had a 12 year old friend who was in a relationship with a 21 year old. She would not have been considered old enough now to view the kind of films that might have educated her as to grooming and sexual abuse by adults and what was happening to her. This was 1982. None of us had a clue.

Nor was this an underprivileged area, she had highly educated parents, lived in one of the wealthiest of London, and went to one of the top private schools in the country, which equally, had its own issues with historic sexual abuse and harassment. Children, even teenagers, then had no words or concepts then to explain such experiences. I just thought it was part of life. What happened at that school is much less likely to happen now given the changes in culture and the increased awareness of the pupils.

That child sex abuse is rising doesn’t mean that the current measures to protect children aren’t working. Simply that the forces fuelling the rise are currently stronger than the measures to combat. Sexual abuse will only stop when people stop sexually abusing.

I’m glad you are aware of her work. As a victim, I don’t know how you can still think they’re a good idea. She actively disproves their worth.

I do think you’re completely 100% right though. Abuse won’t stop until abusers stop abusing. So why do we focus our energy into placing the responsibility onto young children?

Why not throw our energy, money and resources into

• improving prosecution rates?
• Actively disproving the belief, that victims should fight off their attackers?
• Disproving myths like “they wanted it, cos their knickers were lacy”
• making being a rapist a crime.
• teaching teenagers not to rape, rather than to not get raped.

At present rape is rarely prosecuted. Victims are put through hell. And we spend all our resources, teaching children that they are responsible for not getting themselves raped.

Children can’t stop their abuse. I couldn’t stop a grown man raping me. Showing me a video would not have prevented my abuse. It would have caused me harm though. I have cptsd, but I’m alive. Further traumatisation could have resulted in me not being.

I’ll leave it there. I’ve said enough.

I think it’s extremely important to teach children about being safe online and grooming however that video sounds very explicit. I’m sure they could have got the message across to 11 year olds another way.

I remember a few videos we were show at school

I remember a hideous one about fireworks! And a girl with no hand

I also saw one about swimming near a boat propellor. That shouldn’t need explaining

And one awful awful one about electricity lines.

As a victim, I don’t know how you can still think they’re a good idea. She actively disproves their worth.

Because I don’t just take the opinion of one person as gospel. I listen to range of opinion, and consider my own experience and other people’s.

Abuse won’t stop until abusers stop abusing. So why do we focus our energy into placing the responsibility onto young children?

We’re not. Massive resources go into police teams trying to prevent child sexual abuse globally. But the police are fighting a losing battle against the internet and organised crime.

We’re simply trying to protect the children in front of us. Because previous generations of parents simply didn’t have the awareness to do so.

I disagree that the research is the opinion of one person, if you read it you’ll see there was a plethora of evidence, collected from wide ranging sources.

Statistics suggest that rape is not being investigated or prosecuted by the police.

If we can’t measure the success of the films by a reduction in children being abused, how would you suggest we do that? What is the evidence base for their impact?

I think when we have a resource that is proven to re-traumatise young children, stops then disclosing abuse, and shames them into not seeking support. There needs to be a pretty weighty evidence base for using it.

I have read it , I didn’t say the research was the opinion of one person. You said “she” singular “actively disproves their worth”. I don’t agree she does, and as I said, while her opinion valid and interesting, I don’t take it as the be all and end all.

If we can’t measure the success of the films by a reduction in children being abused, how would you suggest we do that? What is the evidence base for their impact?

That’s precisely the point. It’s very difficult to measure the success/failure of the film by relating it to crime stats. You could be running effective awareness campaigns to educate children, but if the numbers of abusers are rising simply because more people are at it, the stats will rise nonetheless. It’s precisely because it’s increasing as a crime that children need to be informed.

I thought you were aware of the research, so I thought you knew it was the opinion of more than her. It clearly isn’t just a blog. It’s ‘her’ research, but you know who she is, so you know it’s extensive, phd research.

I think when a resource has been shown to re-traumatise young children, there needs to be clear evidence that it works. What evidence do you know of, that demonstrates the positive impact of the films?

Trauma is horrific to live with. I had to watch one of the films in safeguarding training. It made me physically unwell, and triggered flashbacks. I’m an adult, who has had extensive therapy. No child deserves to sit in a room with their peers feeling like that.

We can do better. We can find better ways. We HAVE to find better ways, because, in my opinion, it’s abusive. Making young, traumatised children (or adults) watch such explicit material is abuse.

And regarding there being more abusers ‘at it’ then surely my point about putting resources into other areas makes sense. Traumatising kids gets the ok, but we’re not looking into why so many rape trials fall through, and why so many cases are listed as NFA.

The research covers interviews with many different people plural. From that she forms her own personal opinion singular. Ok?

I’m saying her conclusions and her opinions are valid and worthwhile but I don’t take the word of just one person. It’s a contribution to a debate which involves many different perspectives and views.

I get the feeling you think a PhD has higher significance than it actually does. In this case what you call “evidence” is anecdotal. Valid, important but anecdotal.

And regarding there being more abusers ‘at it’ then surely my point about putting resources into other areas makes sense

Putting resources into all areas makes sense actually.

We heard the same story at work when the police came in to talk to us about internet safety. They played the recording of the killer telling the police what he had just done when he called 999. I found it horrific and very disturbing and unnecessary, I can be told 'teach your children not to arrange to meet strangers off the internet' and understand why without being forced to listen to something so horrific. I wonder if working in the area desensitises you so much and so the police who arranged the training think it is necessary to shock us whereas I just found it very upsetting and not helpful at all. I didn't come out of the training thinking 'well, I know how to help my children now' I was just really upset that I had had to listen to that and be told 'the victims mother did everything she should have done and still her son died'. I've had the same in fire training at work before, this idea that you have to upset people to get them to understand your message.

No, I’m fully aware of what a phd is. The fact that some councils of the back of it is pretty big in my opinion. (Only my opinion though, anecdotal opinion)

Do you have evidence, to show the positive impact that the films had? Large numbers of anecdotal evidence is fine.

**banned the films off the back of it.

Too late is too late

@CountFosco yeah, that’s how I felt. I have cptsd, so the one I saw, that included a child before and after rape, was really triggering. I also dissociate, if I’d seen that in my teens, pre therapy, I’ve no idea what the result would have been.

It is such a very hard topic. I was an early ambassador of the original CEOP programme when we were talking about club penguin and Habo hotel. It was a terrifying eye opener to any adult who didn’t spend considerable time online.

In my view the videos which came with that package were sufficient. They alluded to abuse but the children survived and thrived. It showed perpetrators being arrested. I know the reasons for hardening the message but what it meant was that I couldn’t persuade teachers to deliver the material. I have teachers who are still using original ceop material from 14 years ago as they are just so uncomfortable with the newer stuff.

My feeling is:
Children have to be made aware of the dangers of grooming as so very many parents exert no control over online behaviour
Online grooming is invidious and can take years. These people commit to the long game. We need to educate early so you are preventing rather than convincing a child that their best friend of 2 years is actually a grown man who wants to harm them
Parents should be forewarned and told where to find copies of the materials. I used to run sessions for parents where I delivered exact replicas of the lesson I would give to kids. In a very, very large school I had tiny numbers. Infinitesimal. And then it was “what are you doing about it then?” Responses. So we stopped asking permission and instead asked forgiveness if it went sour.
We hand pick teachers who deliver this content. They know whatever there is to know about the children in the class. So if it is known by pastoral. Mostly it is pastoral who deliver. There are lots of clear guides at the beginning about how to exit the lesson, how to seek advice after etc. We also made all teaching staff aware that we are running the sessions

Honestly, I would rather not have to do them. I don’t get pleasure out of frightening children.

It does sound a little bit too explicit. Shame the school didn't provide detailed information on what to expect from the talk.
Do they still do stranger danger talks in primary school? I remember having lots of questions for my parents after having this talk in school.
Each time I walked past one of those 'say NO to strangers' signs in parks etc after, it would prompt me to ask yet more questions.

What do you do when children haven’t disclosed abuse? You can know kids, but it’s common for kids not to disclose. I didn’t disclose. When I was made to act out the role of an abused child aged 14/15, despite dissociating, losing the ability to speak, and going home and self harming, no teacher ever found out. I was in trouble for not engaging in the lesson though.

Leaving a lesson/training session, due to being triggered is itself a trigger for me. It’s exposure. Not only that, but as a teen, if I was triggered I couldn’t speak or move. It mirrored what happened to my body whilst being abused. The likelihood of me getting up, leaving and having a coherent conversation with an adult are slim to none.

Was that a question for me beebie? If I may, I hope to answer or at least respond.

I encourage everyone I deal with to understand that we can’t know what we don’t know. Therefore we work in a trauma aware way. Hopefully anyway. That’s the intention.

It is hideous. Awful. That a child may sit though a lesson on abuse when they themselves have already been a victim of this and is always at the forefront of anyone delivering. Unfortunately as a pastoral teacher this is a regular occurrence so we have to try to be as sensitive as we can while also ensuring that the message is still given

My word. I have just read your first paragraph again beebie. That sounds hideous and I am sorry that you were treated that way. I would hope that we are more trauma aware now

Its probably because I only left school a few years ago but I agree to a certain extent of the lesson because that age group would commonly be targeted and they want their students to be safe and a lot of parents don't monitor their kids online, I think making them do plays about it is absolutely ridiculous and it was done wrong but I think teaching them to be safe isn't the worst idea, it could have been done in much less detail though, like saying "a strange approached them online and asked to meet up and when they did they ended up hurt"

I’m not sure about what’s the best way to inform children. Really interesting to hear the pros and cons of videos like this. Has anyone read this article about online grooming? I didn’t realise it was this bad so really need to get more clued up. In one week 52 men contacted a ‘girl’ online. She’s actually a grown woman pretending. It’s potentially triggering. m.slashdot.org/story/364674

Agh I know my
Year 7 was fairly traumatised by the crime and ambulance day they had

But sadly I think they need to know and maybe even be a bit scared as they are so online now

Yanbu to be upset though

My DS will be 10 next month and I still shield him from most things, maybe he’s too wrapped in cotton wool for his own good but I really don’t think he needs to know about vicious stabbings.

It's the naive, 'sensitive' children that are the most vulnerable to sexual grooming.