Times Tables expectations - too high?

[UndertheCedartree]

My DD school don't follow the NC but seem to follow it (at least in part) for Times Tables - so Y2 learned the 2, 5 and 10 times tables and this year (Y3) they are learning 3, 4 and 8. By the end of Y4 they should know them all by heart including division facts. Is this just me or does this seem a lot? I know I only learnt my Times Tables in Y5 and 6 (so hadn't even started by the time they are meant to know them all now!) and Division was in Secondary school.

I know my DD is not at the expected NC level (I'm not sure what the school expects but will find out at the next parent/teacher meeting). So my DD is coming up for 8. She knows the 10× table off by heart and can do Division facts. 2x table she can recite in order. 5x table - she can count in 5s. And that's it basically. Much more than I could do at her age and I did really well at school. She understands Multiplication and can work out a sum if she has time to count. Is she very behind?

We’re in Ireland and we don’t even do the times tables at the equivalent of yr2!!!my dd is nearly 7 and they are doing addition tables!! 😮

Might not follow the NC but for schools who do by the end of Y4 chn are expected to take part in a times table test answering questions on all 12 tables which include multiplication and division facts.
I teach year 1 and they are expected to know their 10's and 2's by the end of the year (just multiplication). Unfortunately, due to government and Ofsted, expectations are ridiculously high! I would say at 8, in my school, she would at least be expected to know 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10's speedily and with both multiplication and division - again though this is the high expectation of my school!

At my sons school they have done 2,5 and 10s and he’s in year one so that’s pretty standard I think. And my 4 year old can recite 10 times table and knows double numbers up to 7 x 7 (can ask him in any order and he can tell us the answer). Neither boys are ahead of expectations - I thought this was pretty standard. There’s an app called times table rockstars which my son enjoys so maybe worth a go?

Seems reasonable. I knew all mine up to 12 by Y3 but ...... I am old school

I think for a lot of children, once they get the concept, when they actually learn their tables is purely down to when you/school/child put effort in to learn them.

What do you mean about the school not following national curriculum? That is literally the only statutory document schools must follow.
In terms of multiplication tables the school are following statutory guidance. This year starts the statutory y4 multiplication tables check (you can read about it on the government website). The expectation is now that by end of year 4 a child should be fluent in the rapid recall of all multiplication facts. Year 5 a d 6 are then focussed on reasoning and application. This has been in the pipeline for a couple of years so schools have had to significantly raise the bar and teach things in lower year groups that they previously might not have done.

New test starting this yr at end of yr 4 that tests times tables up to 12 x 12. I agree it's too soon and would prefer end of yr5 but it's going ahead. I would say only knowing 2s 5s and 10s is behind at 8yrs old. For some it's going to be tricky. Practise makes perfect is my best advice. Lots of repetition

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State primary in the 70s, and we were all chanting all tables to 12x12 by rote, in what is now Y2/P3.

I personally think that rote learning of tables makes progressing in primary maths much easier, and my own anecdotal experience of those 70s schooldays was that it was very achievable for the majority.

My daughter’s school push them in Y4, and speaking to parent friends and teacher friends, they find it achievable.

My Y6 is doing SATS prep currently. There is a Maths Reasoning question that has as one of its steps “12 x 12”. The far more important knowledge (in my opinion!) is:

• what is a perimeter
• all sides of a square are equal
• the area of a square is L x W (that was the 12x12 bit!)

My daughter and I discussed how much more time she has, because she doesn’t needs to write out a 12 x 12 multiplication, go 2 x 2 = 4, 2 x 10 = 20. Total 24. Remember to put a zero in the unit column. 10 x 12 is 120. 120 + 24 is 144. So many steps, so many chances to make an error. Instead, she just instantly knows the answer is 144.

It frees up so much time (and gives confidence!) to concentrate on new ideas in maths.

I’m not saying that your daughter wouldn’t catch up - as you say, you didn’t know them. But I would say, as I’m in the thick of Y6!, that strong times table knowledge in Y4 pays dividends in Y5, and is essential for SATs in Y6. And, looking ahead to Y7 - at least what MyMaths set at my primary tells us is Y7! - they really help there too.

For most children I’ve been in contact with through my own children, I would say YANBU, it isn’t too much for end of Y4 to know all your times tables and division facts. But it does take a decision to focus on it!

It is a process of just knowing what comes next without working it out. I bet she can sing a lot of songs and this is the analogy I use with children in year 4.

For example, if she sings morning has broken in school she will probably know a lot of the lines because she has done them over and over. With timestables you just have to know that 6 sixes are 36.

Even when you learn your 2 times tables, you are learning other times tables too, so 6 twos are 12 and also 2 sixes are 12. So you are knowing facts from other times tables.

If she just did 5 minutes every day she would soon learn them. And yes, my own children had to learn them too. The faster she learns them the easier a lot of maths will be for her.

Things have changed since we were at school.

Times table check in year 4 is on 8th June this year.

The reasoning behind it is that children will struggle to access the year 5 and 6 curriculum without a firm basis of times table knowledge.

I teach year 3. They are expected to know multiplication and division facts for 2, 3, 4, 5, 8 and 10 in this year group. I am encouraging all children to practise all 12 of their tables to ensure fluency by year 4.

Whether your school follows the national curriculum or not (girlmama - academies aren’t obliged to, but most choose to) they will still have to do the year 4 tests.
I didn’t want to ‘make’ my son learn them last year - as I was one of the ‘I didn’t learn mine and it didn’t do me any harm ‘ brigade - but actually his maths has improved hugely from persisting with them.

Same as Ellisandra above. We chanted them all every day in year 3 which is when I joined that school in the mid-70s up to the 12s.

Regarding schools not following the NC, only maintained schools must follow it. If your school is an academy, they have the freedom to do their own thing. I teach in a secondary academy and a primary maintained school. I follow the NC only in the primary school, although I cover the core skills in the secondary but play to my strengths and those of my students.

I would absolutely agree that knowing your times tables makes secondary maths massively easier.
However, it's not the end of the world if they really can't learn them for whatever reason.

@TreeClimbingCat we used to call those “getting a freebie!”

I made a big 12 x 12 grid on A2 card for my Y3 daughter, and said - right, let’s mark off all the ones we’re going to get for free! So by the time you learn 12x table, you only have to learn 12 x 12! I got her thinking it was a sneaky trick and we were all very “ha ha - we fooled you, times tables!”. The grid makes a lovely pattern, because the more you learn, the less you need to learn from all future tables. And it really reinforces the messages that 2 x 3 is the same as 3 x 2, and that’s such a key message. When you think of it that way, how many you’re asking them to actually learn - it’s not as many as you think. That’s why I think, with focus, it is achievable for most Y4, though I absolutely appreciate not all.

@girlmama might be an independent school? I believe they don't have to follow the National Curriculum?

Other tips that worked for us:

• we learned square numbers separately from the times table, because in my experience those calculations come up slightly more frequently in class (precisely to work out area of squares)
• sometimes you find silly rhymes for them - a friend told me 8 x 8 = 64, “I ate and ate until I was sick-on-the-floor” - that became unforgettable!
• there was one that my Y3 forgot a lot - 9 x 7 = 63. So I just pretended it was my favourite! 3 years on, if I say “mummy’s favourite times table!” she still knows it’s 63. I found it easy to pick off some that way.

My child’s school report a lot of success with TT rockstars as mentioned above. My nephew loved it, though my daughter found it very dull.

I think it's reasonable. As others have said, once they have the concept, they just need to practise widening it to more tables. Both my children could do tables to 12 and associated division by midway through Yr3.

Sounds right for current expectations at primary school. Our school have emphasised the importance of times tables as a foundation for good maths skills.
I have no recollection at all of when I learnt them, but I am really impressed with my 8yo's ability to do them lightening fast!

My son is Y1 and knows his 2, 5 and 10 times tables already. He is getting to grips with the others steadily.

For instance if I were to ask him what 3×4 is,he would know.

So,I don't think it's that unusual. I can remember learning times tables at primary school in the early/mid 90s so not that new a thing.

Having the basic knowledge of multiplication, division, addition and subtraction makes life much easier later.

I teach secondary science and students who struggle tend to be those who lack the fundamental knowledge of number.

@Girlmama - it is an academy - they don't have to follow the NC.

my dc did number bonds until end of y2 and then all times tables in y3

I don’t know hah age y4 etc is. We got a small booklet in primary 3 just before the summer break and we wrote all our times tables in there do by the day art of primary 4 we would have learned some of it. In primary 4 we were drilled and drilled daily in times tables.

I learned a trick for the 9x table, all answer have to add up to 9, 9,18, 27....the number you start with in the answer is 1 below the number you are multiplying by. Eg, 9x4= the answer will start with 3 (one digit lower than the multiplayer of 4) so it’s 36.

My own dd is in Y3 and learning the 4 times, having also been taught the 8 times and 3 times.

In Y2 they did 2, 5 and 10 times.

It makes sense to me to learn 5/10 together and then 4/8.

Presumably the 6 and 12 fall together too.