Times Tables expectations - too high?

[UndertheCedartree]

My DD school don't follow the NC but seem to follow it (at least in part) for Times Tables - so Y2 learned the 2, 5 and 10 times tables and this year (Y3) they are learning 3, 4 and 8. By the end of Y4 they should know them all by heart including division facts. Is this just me or does this seem a lot? I know I only learnt my Times Tables in Y5 and 6 (so hadn't even started by the time they are meant to know them all now!) and Division was in Secondary school.

I know my DD is not at the expected NC level (I'm not sure what the school expects but will find out at the next parent/teacher meeting). So my DD is coming up for 8. She knows the 10× table off by heart and can do Division facts. 2x table she can recite in order. 5x table - she can count in 5s. And that's it basically. Much more than I could do at her age and I did really well at school. She understands Multiplication and can work out a sum if she has time to count. Is she very behind?

The main value in learning times tables to instant recognition and recall is that when you get to harder maths you can focus on the harder stuff and not keep getting interrupted to do the times tables.

e.g. Expand (4y - 5)(6y + 11)
You have to remember how to expand brackets, not miss out any of the 4 calculations, deal with the negative sign, then collect up the terms afterwards.
It is much easier to stay focussed on that process if you can instantly do 4x6, 5x6, 4x11 and 5x11. Otherwise you keep having to go off to the side and work out your tables. Then when you get back to the main problem you've lost your train of thought.

@lollybee1 my DS would tell me to be quiet if I started reciting tables in his company...as of now he wants me to help him create Lego robots and vehicles (and yes I secretly bring in numbers etc) he also just loves to read factual books with me at the moment so I’ll go with that.

@lollybee1 nope. I like my children to be children. They have no need to be learning tables in preschool. Sad attitude you have.

This is all quite different from where we live in France. Here my DS who is 5yo hasn't even started school. He does Montessori type activities in preschool and won't start school till 6yo. My DD who is 8yo nearly 9yo did 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10 times tables last year, doing 6, 8 and 9 this year.

I am not too sure she is behind at maths either because she recently had an assessment at an International school in another country (we are thinking of moving) and they said she was advanced at maths and they intended to pull her out of her year for maths in order to do mathletics.

This is not a stealth boast btw. I suspect something might be wrong with very early insistence on math as memorization.

I was at primary school in the early sixties. We learned the tables up to and including 12x table, by rote in year 3 and there was a chart so that once you had recited a table to the class teacher, she would tick against your name that you knew that one (very annoying, as I learned them all fairly quickly and only got called up to recite a table to her about 3 times so it looked as though I hadn't learned them all though I had). In addition, out of school, my parents and older brother and sister would randomly ask me to recite a table or two so they all made sure it got stuck in my head. I think some of my class found it more difficult than others but I believe they'd all got them all off pat by the end of year 4.

Here in Japan they are expected to know them all by the end of grade 2, which is the same age group as "end of Y3" in an English school. Seems reasonable to me. It's way easier to learn in Japanese though!

I think the "basics" need to become second nature, as many PP's have said, because stopping to work them out every time can be a distraction. It's a bit like driving a car. When you first learn, things like changing gear require conscious mental effort (happy memories of bouncing around a disused airfield with my ever-patient DF!) but after a while, the basics become second nature, and you can think about the far more complex realities of driving on a real road.
Some people are lucky, like the PP who spotted patterns intuitively, others need to have them pointed out. And oddly, it can be the bits that you had to work at a bit which stick more firmly in your memory.

@ShinyGiratina - I agree. Times tables are of course a good skill but the emphasis on them for the Year 4 test is not helpful for all. I imagine if my DS went to school he would have been seen as behind for not being able to learn them - even though his Maths ability is well above average.

@81Byerley - wow - that is wonderful to hear. She obviously thrived on home education. Maybe my DS will follow in her footsteps one day!

I was in primary school in the 90s. We did all times tables in year 3. I can remember doing division with remainders in year 6 so don't know when we first did division. I thought a lot of maths was done earlier now.

I am old school as well. 1960s, tables up to 12 chanted daily and knew them solidly by age 6. If you have instant recall of tables then maths becomes SO much less laborious (and I am no mathematician).

DS1 was seemingly born knowing his tables, slight exaggeration but he certainly knew them before starting school.
DS2 was being taught various new methods, none of which appeared to involve remembering tables and he was struggling. I made him learn them at home the old fashioned way. It wasn't fun but it got the job done (he went on to get A* in maths GCSE and A level).

@Booboostwo - I completely understand - myself and my son are good at seeing patterns to which is probably why he is doing so well at Maths despite not knowing his times tables.

In my daughters' primary school my daughters had times tables homework every day in Y4. They each had to fill in the entire 1-10 times tables every day, sometimes even once at home and once in school.

At first they gave them 10 minutes and if they did not manage it was fine. After they managed that, they were told to do it as fast as possible and write down their times. In the end there were children who could do it in 2.5 minutes. They did it competitively in class. You could try that method. Our sheets looked differently each time, they weren't in order (1x1,2x1...9x10,10x10) but jumbled up.

One of my daughters finds maths hard. That method was very helpful. You could also try 123 maths. Their books are very helpful!

@lollybee1 - you expect the average 3 year old to learn times tables?

@Yolande7 - thanks for the reccomendations

I changed on the 60s,I still have instant recall.
When my DD was at primary the just changed 2,4,6 etc not the 1x2=2 etc so not useful.I did a big grid times table for her and we chanted in the car.It goes in through repetition and is just one less thing to learn.
My DD saw the patterns and what is more important learnt not to be scared of maths.
Not all children will but most can learn by repetition or songs.(misty eyed recall of DD singing 12345 once I caught a fish alive when very small)

My DD is in Yr5 and doing long multiplication and division.

You simply can't do that if you don't have a good grasp of your times tables in year 4.

She isn't naturally math minded but we make up songs and practice on the way to school.

I remember learning them in Y3 and Y4 (90s but not following NC). I do think it helps with maths. We had a fantastic tape which turned each times table into a "cool" song which we would listen to in the car a lot. I really do feel for my poor parents. But I can still sing some of the songs so it seemed to work! Perhaps look into that if your nerves can stand it.

@BrimfulofSasha - it is obviously extremely useful for a lot of children (and will be to my DD) but as discussed on here some children are very gifted at Maths without knowing their tables.

@mauvaisereputation - I think we used to have that tape too!