Times Tables expectations - too high?

[UndertheCedartree]

My DD school don't follow the NC but seem to follow it (at least in part) for Times Tables - so Y2 learned the 2, 5 and 10 times tables and this year (Y3) they are learning 3, 4 and 8. By the end of Y4 they should know them all by heart including division facts. Is this just me or does this seem a lot? I know I only learnt my Times Tables in Y5 and 6 (so hadn't even started by the time they are meant to know them all now!) and Division was in Secondary school.

I know my DD is not at the expected NC level (I'm not sure what the school expects but will find out at the next parent/teacher meeting). So my DD is coming up for 8. She knows the 10× table off by heart and can do Division facts. 2x table she can recite in order. 5x table - she can count in 5s. And that's it basically. Much more than I could do at her age and I did really well at school. She understands Multiplication and can work out a sum if she has time to count. Is she very behind?

@sussexman - I never had that experience 'that some people couldn't do maths' or that maths wasn't valued. I went to a Grammar school so was surrounded by people who did very well at Maths. My DD is very good at Maths but appears to struggle a bit with the Times Tables. As I said when I was at school we learnt them in 2 terms so dragging it out over 4 years seems strange. My DS is also excellent at Maths and working a year above but can't recall Times tables. I'm sure it's not a stretch to learn 4 if you can do 8 but my DD isn't at the point of being able to do 4x yet.

I recommend Rockstar times tables. Our year 4s used it last year and out of 30 children, 24 got all the questions on the test correct, 5 others achieved the required standard to pass and the other child did well despite multiple additional needs.

@cantkeepawayforever - you are probably right I am sure they are aligned with it in some way. But I know when they were doing SATS they stopped their normal English curriculum to learn the specific (slightly odd in my opinion) things needed for SATS. They didn't seem to need to learn anything extra for Maths. They do Singapore Maths - which I guess is probably in line with the NC. She was average in English but above average in Maths. So I know it's not her Maths understanding lacking. I'm sure she'll get there in the end!

My daughter really struggled with times tables. There is an app called hit the button which has helped her a lot.

She’s 10 now and her class are moving on to division tomorrow (Ireland)

"Moving on to division tomorrow?" At 10 yo? Surely they'll have met it before now?!

State primary in the 70s, and we were all chanting all tables to 12x12 by rote, in what is now Y2/P3.

State primary 80's and the same. I remember the classroom, we used to put our chairs on the desk and recite them before home time.

I couldn't say twelve though (speech delay) so that was my only struggle.

I just mentioned they don't follow the NC as I wasn't sure if their expectations were a bit different. They haven't suggested to me she is behind so I wasn't sure.

Do you mean they use a course called Singapore Maths?

Or they do 'mastery maths based loosely on the Singapore approach'?

Or they use 'Maths No Problem', which is one of the sets of books created for the UK primary curriculum based on the Singapore approach? ('Power Maths' is another alternative)

'Singapore Maths', like 'Mastery', is a term often used but perhaps relatively loosely defined!

@CallmeAngelina the Irish curriculum is very different to the U.K. curriculum my dd is 7 and in the equivalent of yr2... they haven’t even TOUCHED multiplication yet!! They will count in 2’s, 5’s and 10’s but the majority of the 1st class syllabus is addition and subtraction. They will touch on multiplication at the end of the year.
And age is nothing to go by here...a child can start school here at any time between 4 and 6...so at age 10 could be in the equivalent of yr4.

@twoshedsjackson - we have a colouring book very similar to that but called something different - The Multiplication Tables Colouring Book. She enjoys it a lot.

I have to say this is why so many autistic children are home-educated as things like the Yr4 times tables test are just not achievable for many despite being very gifted in Maths.

NC statements for knowledge of multiplication:

• Y2: 2x, 5x and 10x (multiplication and division facts)
• Y3: 3x, 4x and 8x (multiplication and division facts)
• Y4: All tables to 12x12 and associated division facts

The times table check at the end of Y4 assesses knowledge of all multiplication facts to 12x12, but not division facts IIRC. So a child who knew all multiplication facts well but no division facts would slip through that particular net.

@81byerly - but that's the point not all children are the same. Just as some children can't learn their times tables but can still be super bright. They can undetstand them easy - just not be able to remember them. But yes, like you I use mine a lot. I hope your GD's education carried on in a positive manner?

I don't think - correct me if i am wrong - that autism necessarily prevents children from being able to learn and recall times tables?

I have taught autistic children of different abilities (on average, we have at least one per class, every year), and tbh their ability to learn and recall times table facts tended to be in line with their general academic ability and performance, rather than the severity or otherwise of their autism?

It doesn't mean that a specific autistic child might not have a difficulty in such learning and recall, of course not - just that the statement of a general correlation doesn't chime with my experience? Is it in the literature?

@cantkeepawayforever - yeah I get they are learning in a simple way from the beginning which is great. It is all new for me as my eldest is home-educated so has done things differently! And it is so different to when I was in Primary. But I'm enjoying finding out about the different ways of teaching things!

@cantkeepawayforever - they actually do Singapore Maths. Her class teacher is new to it and says it's the best way of teaching Maths he has ever learnt.
Many autistic children have visual and auditory processing issues - this can make this type of learning hard. It's not anything to do with how severe their autism is. I think the children that struggle in this way end up out of mainstream (just a guess as so many autistic children being home-educated or taken out of school even if parents don't want to home educate but are trying to find provision to suit them.).

I attended primary school in the 70s and can very clearly remember having to learn my times tables in class 3 (year 3). Though I struggled initially, learning them with the help of home made flash cards helped.

Oh my goodness, we learnt up to and including our 12 times tables, by the time we left the infants when I was at school.
Mrs Strong, fabulous teacher, who also let us cut polystrene, using her sons lathe. ..😂😂🤣

My younger child has done 1, 2, 3, 5, 10 in year 2.
My older children, didn’t learn them properly at school and still don’t know them ( at uni)
And not for want of thousands of times tables cd’s in the car on long school journeys.

Well I think it was a lathe, it was one thin blade, and seemed to melt the polystrene, it smelt terrible as you cut it, but it was great fun

Polystyrene *

I know I am a real oldie, as I was at junior school in the 50s, but it was normal to chant the tables every morning, so that by year 4 we knew them off by heart up to x12. The tables were up on charts around the room and the teacher would use a pointer, we would go through them all, and it would just seep in. That was in the days before calculators and it was a necessary skill.
When I taught primary in the 70s our head would not allow us to teach tables; the children were expected to work things out for themselves, by counting on and all that sort of nonsense.
Twenty years later (and still teaching!) the tide had turned and we were backing to learning tables by rote. Well I made sure my class did, anyway!

My son did 2-10 times tables in P3. I thought that was standard.

I’m in Ireland also and my 8yr old is learning 2345678910 x tables and knows them but struggles with 6 7 and 8 and beginning to know division too

@cantkeepawayforever - another common issue is not being able to do phonics among my DS and his autie friends. He started reading with good stamina later than my DD but at 12 is a massive book worm and reads about 5 or 6 books a week and is undertaking a GCSE English course. So while phonics is great for most children for some it isn't but they can still suceed!

High expectation does make a huge difference to children who have the potential to learn rapidly (I say that deliberately, because e.g. my DD1 is in year 9 and is just getting to grips with some times tables as she has LDs). DD3 went to a small primary school. She was in year 4 and the school approach was to test the children on a table, then when they got 100% twice, they moved to the next one. DD3 was the best in the class, so she set the pace and that meant that she felt 'fine' if she got a few wrong - the other kids hadn't caught her up.

Then, she moved school to a large junior school that used TT Rockstars. Kids there were answering all 60 questions within 3 minutes (they're much faster now, they were in year 4). She came home and said "Mum, I only answered 47 questions in 3 minutes and other people were finished the whole lot!" I said 'Well, baby girl, you've got some work to do, then.' She soon caught up.

Now, in year 6, a few of the kids in her class are getting too good at TT Rockstars, so as well as that, they do Table Mountain, which tests division facts, percentages, decimals, fractions, etc. She loves it.

You can buy TT Rockstars at home for about £6 per year, so you could control the tables she practices.