Times Tables expectations - too high?

[UndertheCedartree]

My DD school don't follow the NC but seem to follow it (at least in part) for Times Tables - so Y2 learned the 2, 5 and 10 times tables and this year (Y3) they are learning 3, 4 and 8. By the end of Y4 they should know them all by heart including division facts. Is this just me or does this seem a lot? I know I only learnt my Times Tables in Y5 and 6 (so hadn't even started by the time they are meant to know them all now!) and Division was in Secondary school.

I know my DD is not at the expected NC level (I'm not sure what the school expects but will find out at the next parent/teacher meeting). So my DD is coming up for 8. She knows the 10× table off by heart and can do Division facts. 2x table she can recite in order. 5x table - she can count in 5s. And that's it basically. Much more than I could do at her age and I did really well at school. She understands Multiplication and can work out a sum if she has time to count. Is she very behind?

I thought this was crazy too, much earlier than I learnt them.
but my kids managed to do it.
So I think teaching methods have improved and that's a good thing.

Yr 4 teacher (8 and 9 year olds) here.
If your child is Yr 3 and is at the stage you say regarding times table knowledge, then yes, I would say he is "behind" the expectations for that age.
Nearly all my Yr 4s know their tables (within 6 seconds) up to 12 x12, and not just because of the upcoming statutory test. Rapid recall is a huge help in all areas of maths. It goes without saying that they also understand all the concepts behind that knowledge - arrays and patterns and links and so forth. Lots of practical work with equipment underpins their acquisition of the facts themselves.

I really don't think it helps discussing things like this.

There we'll always be the 'my 4yo knew up to their 17 X tables by the time they were 3'

My DD knows her times tables and is in year 6, but it did take her a while. Maths is just not her forte. And that's fine, because she excels in other things.

These threads just end up as competitive 'my child is sooooooo bright' boasts.

My 6yo (y2) certainly knows 2x 5x and 10x and has done for a while, not sure which others she's done. I don't think that's a high expectation for year 2?

I can specifically remember there being a chart on the wall in my year 4 class (1993/1994) for each child to tick off the times tables as they learnt them and recited to the teacher. I can remember getting beyond 12x and it was definitely y4. So not at all a new thing.

We found these really helpful and the hit the button app which also has number bonds, doubling etc.

Due to changing schools a lot, my times table knowledge is poor and I feel that a better knowledge would have helped me throughout school.

@mumof2exhausted - we have Times Tables rockstars - she loves it. But on the 'Garage' is only on 10x tables (multiplication and division). Not sure if this is set by her teacher or the app just starts at the beginning? She loves the battles with other classes!

@TeenPlusTwenties - my eldest who is autistic falls into the category of not being able to retain them. He just can't remember data like that. He is 12 and only just learning the days of the week and when his birthday is and he is of above average academic ability.

@TreeClimbingCat - yes, that makes sense. She does know a lot of songs (unlike her autistic brother). The repetition is how Times Tables Rock Stars teach it which she loves.

@ShirazSavedMySanity - does she need to solidly know her 2, 5 and 10 before moving on to others? I have not been working on the harder ones with her and concentrating on these - is this right?

I think low expectations do nobody any favours. Learning disability apart I imagine most children are capable of reciting tables to twelve by year four. My children’s peers usually could with one or two exceptions in each of their classes.

I was expected to know all my times tables up to 12 by age 7.

@PositiveVibez that’s not the direction of this thread at all.

My kids don't go to school in the UK but by 7 my eldest could do them all up to 15x and my youngest (currently 6) is pretty much there.

I don't think it's a high expectation at all. I remember learning mine about the same age in the UK but I didn't go to a state school.

I am in my late 60s. I knew all my tables up to 12x12 by the end of first year juniors (Year 3).

I know this because I had a very fierce teacher with a very hard ruler (knuckles for the rapping of)

Having said that, we were a large school and the classes were streamed. Mine was the top stream. I'm not sure the other classes would have had all children at that level.

But...it's sheer boring DAILY repetition. Most can manage that.

I learned a trick for the 9x table, all answer have to add up to 9, 9,18, 27

And you only have to learn up to 9x5, because after that you just reverse the order of the digits in the answer, all the way up to 9x10 -
9x5 = 45
9x6 = 54 etc

Division was in Secondary school.

How do you get to secondary school without doing division?
It's just the reverse of multiplication; if you know one, you can do the other:
9x5 = 45
45÷9 = 5

Buy a cd for playing in the car. If she sings the tables she will learn them quicker. Does she have a learning disability? She seems a bit behind what many kids can do. By end of year 2 many kids know 2,3,4,5,10 multiplication and division with many kids also knowing more. Make her say it all eg 3 x 4=12, 4 x 4 =16 not just counting up in 4s 4,8,12,16 etc as it will make division easier.

I think children who don't know their times tables well by Year 4 are at a real disadvantage in maths and only fall further behind.

I am in Scotland where P5 = Y4 and yes they would expect by end of P5 to be able to do all times tables there is however no big test, DD is now in P6 and they are doing long multiplication and division with simple numbers like 3600 x 50 not or 8420 /20 not 123 x 678 or 763/23

DD is year 1 (although in a mixed year 1/2 class), they have done their 2’s, 3’s, 5’s and 10’s and are now working on 4’s and 6’s. They are also doing division. So seems standard if not a little bit ‘slow’ to me! I don’t know what is normal though.

Dd is yr4 & at the beginning of the year when they told us about the testing & the 100% in 6 secs requirement I thought dd would struggle. She's always been at the expected level but isn't particularly numerate & seemed to be missing some maths logic.
As it turns out - 1 term later she's fluent & totally secure on tables & it has helped her maths reasoning enormously too.
Agree with pp maybe low expectations don't help.
Her school use purple maths & monster multiplication.

"Division facts"? I had to google that!

Do they do long division in primary nowadays?

@Ellisandra - I love that

By the way I don't think 'I didn't learn mine didn't do me any harm!'. I did learnt mine - very quickly in a couple of terms. I do find once a child is ready they will learn very quickly. DD has been doing times tables for 2 and a half years so far! I appreciate the tests and SATs and therefore expectations are very different than when I was at school in the 80s. But I didn't learn them all til Y6 and still got an A* in Maths GCSE. But yeah - very different times.

And schools are doing all they can to lay the groundwork for times tables, but the bottom line is that kids have to crack on with the actual learning of them themselves, hopefully supported by their parents/carers.

The primary maths syllabus is ridiculous these days covering concepts that would have been in year 7 and higher 30 years ago.
I passed my 11+ in the late 80s and went to grammar school and we never covered half the stuff at primary that my DD is doing in Y5. No wonder so many kids struggle, it's been a battle to keep DD positive and not be turned off of maths forever. it's completely counter productive if we want to encourage STEM subjects in this country.

Times tables rock stars is set by the teacher. Ask them to add more. Mine could do all tables earlier than end of year 4. I appreciate children learn at different rates but I think it is still realistic.

I remember learning all mine by about that age and I'm in my 40s.

State primary in the 70s, and we were all chanting all tables to 12x12 by rote, in what is now Y2/P3.

Me too - in the sixties. I wish I still remembered them.

It’s just memorisation and the younger you memorise stuff, the easier it is to retain...

I still know every single word to the first Wham! album (released 1983). If only I had spent the ages of 6-7 learning a foreign language instead 😂

Some kids will struggle more than others though, especially summer babies, but it’s still worth trying to get it all in their heads while they are at this stage of brain development.

We knew them all by the end of P3.
No idea what my local school does now though.