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Original poster

Times Tables expectations - too high?

194 replies

UndertheCedartree · 03/02/2020 17:09

My DD school don't follow the NC but seem to follow it (at least in part) for Times Tables - so Y2 learned the 2, 5 and 10 times tables and this year (Y3) they are learning 3, 4 and 8. By the end of Y4 they should know them all by heart including division facts. Is this just me or does this seem a lot? I know I only learnt my Times Tables in Y5 and 6 (so hadn't even started by the time they are meant to know them all now!) and Division was in Secondary school.

I know my DD is not at the expected NC level (I'm not sure what the school expects but will find out at the next parent/teacher meeting). So my DD is coming up for 8. She knows the 10× table off by heart and can do Division facts. 2x table she can recite in order. 5x table - she can count in 5s. And that's it basically. Much more than I could do at her age and I did really well at school. She understands Multiplication and can work out a sum if she has time to count. Is she very behind?

OP posts:
MarySidney · 03/02/2020 18:24

I am in my late 60s. I knew all my tables up to 12x12 by the end of first year juniors

I'm a bit younger than you, Nanny, and I knew all mine by first or second year juniors. (I can remember which teacher it was, but not which year I had her in.)

Teacher used to have a small group standing round her desk and fire out 4x7, 8x9, etc, etc, and we were expected to shoot the answer back instantly. All random questions, it was no good just being able to recite by rote, you had to know, or be able to work ot, the individual answers.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 03/02/2020 18:26

@PositiveVibez - I'm picking up lots of good information so worth discussing for me!

OP posts:
FrancisCrawford · 03/02/2020 18:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Witchend · 03/02/2020 18:30

I went to state school primary in the 80s.

We did all our tables in year 3, we'd have been expected to know them all by this point in year 3.

We had tables tests out of 20 every Friday. It was unusual for anyone in our form to get under 10.
Tended to be the first 10 questions were quick fire, and done with very little time: eg 4x8
Next 5 were problem solving: eg I went to the shop with 6 friends and bought 42 sweets. How many did we have each?
And the last 5 had more than one element to it: eg. 3 x 2 x 4 or I have 13 socks, I find another 5, how many pairs do I have?

WonderWebbs · 03/02/2020 18:30

My DD is in year 12 and school were very hot on timetables. A can't stress enough how much easier Maths is if the can recite their timetables to 12. The majority were able to do this during year 4 and certainly by the end of year 4.

Little and often is the key, we used to practise in the morning on the school run - made fun if Mum was tested too!

M3lon · 03/02/2020 18:31

I wish I lived in a country that could tell the difference between memorizing times tables and actual education....

woodencoffeetable · 03/02/2020 18:35

memorising times tables is one of the most useful things I have learned at school.
that and working out percentages have saved me loads of money over the year.

Doyoumind · 03/02/2020 18:35

M3lon the way maths is taught nowadays isn't about memorising times tables for the sake of it but in recognition of the fact they can be useful as you progress in maths. My DC never ever recited times tables. That is an alien concept.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 03/02/2020 18:38

Thanks, @seastargirl - I'll have a look.
@MarySidney - we were never taught division facts! Obviously I could work them out but I didn't have fast recall at that age.
@letmebefrank - it seems that is the case nowadays.
@gamerwidow - yeah me too - went to grammar in 1990. They are definitely learning things I didn't til secondary!

OP posts:
Skyejuly · 03/02/2020 18:39

Dd is year 2. She does not know any times tables yet.

Mummyoflittledragon · 03/02/2020 18:40

I remember chanting my 12’s in the equivalent of yr3. My dd struggled with the concept of the times tables in the beginning. One day it just clicked. She caught up rapidly and learnt her 12’s by the end of yr4. By the end of yr5 she was doing her 13’s and 14’s. She’s largely forgotten those as they didn’t do times tables in yr6 but has retained the multiples (incl division) up to 12’s.

Winter2020 · 03/02/2020 18:42

I wanted to recommend the same guy and his times tables videos that has been mentioned by @seastargirl
Check out the six times table set to "cheerleader"
we used to have a lot of fun watching those videos and singing along,

FreeButtonBee · 03/02/2020 18:42

My yr 2 twins did a lot of TT work before Christmas. They know 2,3,4,5 and 10 pretty well and are doing lots of doubling, halving and quartering to maintain the knowledge in a different way. DS also knows most of his 9, 11, 12 and most of 13 but mainly because he is v mathematical - I won’t say he knows them perfectly though. There is still a place for rite learning them. I remember in first gear we were forced to re-learn them all up to 15 times tables as well and squares and cubes. It was hugely useful for maths and science and has always held me in good stead.

TeenPlusTwenties · 03/02/2020 18:42

M3lon You need to memorise times tables, and you need to know when and how to apply them.

You can get by without knowing them, but maths is so much easier if you do have instant recall. They are a very important building block.

e.g. You need to simplify 36/72

I look at that and know it comes to 1/2

Someone with good times table knowledge will see they are both divisible by 12 and will quickly get to 3/6 = 1/2

My DD would have to divide by 2 or 3, then divide by 2 or 3 etc. It takes her much longer because she doesn't have the knowledge at her fingertips. So by the time she has simplified she has forgotten what she was trying to do in the first place.

I factorise numbers for fun, neither of my DDs understand the joy in this at all.

karala · 03/02/2020 18:43

I was born in the 50's and in primary school in the 60's and we were learning all the tables by rote by the time we were 6/7 years old. It made further maths learning so much easier because we could do this.

Tunnocks34 · 03/02/2020 18:44

My son is in year 1 and knows His 2, 5 and 10 already so it sounds pretty standard to me.

Bluetrews25 · 03/02/2020 18:44

I still tend to struggle with 7x8
7x8=56
Swap sides.
56=7x8 lots easier to remember...five, six, seven, eight.
HTH.

WonderWebbs · 03/02/2020 18:45

@UndertheCedartree Sorry just to add it would be a good idea if your DD was secure on the times tables before adding more. Just keep going back to the old ones and adding.

Also 9 timetables are easy. My DD was taught using her knuckles! Also 11 timetables are quick to learn.

Also the most important things in Primary are timetables and reading, reading and reading. The rest falls in to place.

Patchworksack · 03/02/2020 18:45

I went to a state primary in the late 70s/ early 80s and got a Mars bar for knowing all my tables when I was 8. I still remember the sweet taste of success.
My children's school has had a new emphasis on times tables this year partly because of the Y4 test, but because knowing number facts fluently makes lots of other maths easier. The head of maths said he normally isn't a fan of rote learning but for quick recall you just need to learn them!
Y1 daughter is doing 2x and 10x, Y5 son does all of them, and they are both expected to practise on TT Rockstars at least three times a week. My daughter only does 5 x 1 minute as I think that's plenty, but even with that she is pretty good. My son will do half an hour because he is desperate to beat his classmates on points. There are different 'areas' on rockstars, some of which (Garage/Arena) are teacher set and others test all the tables, including Soundcheck which is the same format as the y4 test.

Figgygal · 03/02/2020 18:47

I was going to suggest times tables rock stars but I see that you already have access to that can you not do a sound check or one of the other modes to open up different multiplications?

My eldest is in year three just turned eight he is loving rock stars he can actually do all of his timetables but yes this year I think they’re learning 3, 4 and eight

MarySidney · 03/02/2020 18:49

I wish I lived in a country that could tell the difference between memorizing times tables and actual education....

But the memorizing wasn't an end in itself. The point was that once you'd memorized them, you were then able to apply the knowledge in lessons and in everyday life. Like how much would three fourpenny ice lollies cost....

bellie710 · 03/02/2020 18:52

Same as our primary school Y4 have done 2, 5, 10, 3, 4, 8 now doing 9, 11, 12. By end of Y5 they should know all of them of by heart.

hopefulhalf · 03/02/2020 18:52

We used to pratice tables on the way to school when DS was yr2/3. He knew them by yr 4. Dd is 2 years younger I think she learnt them simultaneosly so by the end of yr1. We certainly never practiced them again !

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 03/02/2020 18:55

I didn't learn them at all - we were supposed to pick them up organically. I've found this to be a pain, so I drilled my kids early - my eldest knew his 3x, 2x, 5x 10x (ie the easy, plus one trickier) at 6, and we've moved on so that at 9 he can answer pretty much all of them.

DS2 (currently 6) does a pretty good job, although not as good as his brother (he's better at addition though).

Number pairs have been emphasised for both and I think that is very good.

So I think that actually, the earlier they learn the better.

Bluerussian · 03/02/2020 18:55

I knew all my tables by year two. I wasn't good at maths.

It's good that the school is teaching them! Your daughter will probably pick them up but there will be pupils who take longer. Don't worry about it.

How do you get to secondary school without doing division?shock

I was and still am incapable of long division despite having it explained to me more than twice. I passed my 11+ and got a grammar school (free) place at an independent.