Times Tables expectations - too high?

[UndertheCedartree]

My DD school don't follow the NC but seem to follow it (at least in part) for Times Tables - so Y2 learned the 2, 5 and 10 times tables and this year (Y3) they are learning 3, 4 and 8. By the end of Y4 they should know them all by heart including division facts. Is this just me or does this seem a lot? I know I only learnt my Times Tables in Y5 and 6 (so hadn't even started by the time they are meant to know them all now!) and Division was in Secondary school.

I know my DD is not at the expected NC level (I'm not sure what the school expects but will find out at the next parent/teacher meeting). So my DD is coming up for 8. She knows the 10× table off by heart and can do Division facts. 2x table she can recite in order. 5x table - she can count in 5s. And that's it basically. Much more than I could do at her age and I did really well at school. She understands Multiplication and can work out a sum if she has time to count. Is she very behind?

I think it was just your area/school, OP, that had low expectations... 80s state primary and expectation was all times tables up to 12x12 known by first year juniors (so Yr 3). By year 6, we were doing algebra, pythagoras, indices, etc etc.

I can't imagine if you're weren't secure in your times tables until year 6, what on earth else you could do in maths? Almost everything else depends on them, number wise?

@M3lon it doesn’t have to be either or though. I did a lot of work at home with my then Y3 to get times tables memorised. But that wasn’t the be all and end all, it was a stepping stone. Now in Y6, her teacher praises her understanding in maths, not her rote recall. Memorising this fundamental gave her confidence and an interest in maths. So many of her friends, already at Y6, groan “maths is hard”, whereas she is just interested in every new concept her teacher introduces, because she’s not daunted, and the bedrock of times table knowledge and confidence has given her a head start on each new topic.

My dd is similar. 2,5,10, 11
3&4 only up to 5 quickly.
Basically school have only focused this year. I think if we had focussed on it dd would have been doing much earlier.
Now working on it we are progressing very quickly.
I tgink although her memory is good her processing isnt fast.

My son is in Year one, bog standard school and he’s learning his 2s, 5s and 10s far to early in my opinion.

I teach in a pretty typical UK Primary School & our children are expected to be fluent in their multiplication and division facts (up to 12x12) by yr6. We focus heavily on rapid recall of times tables (random order) & work with the children to develop greater depth understanding, ie, if you know 3x4=12 then you also know that 30x4=120, 30x40=1200 & so on.

A 4 year old can tell you all the names of every dinosaur/Thomas the Tank character etc so they can recall information readily. If a 4 year old can do this then an average 8/9 year old can certainly rattle off some number facts. You only need to learn half the facts because 10 x 8 = 8 x 10. If you learn them in families then it helps - 2 x, 4 x and 8 x are all doubles of each other.

Your child needs lots of skip counting - ensure you count 3x back for every time forwards. Also count from other starting points. Look at patterns - all numbers in the 3s add up to 3, 6, or 9. All numbers in the 9s add up to 9. All numbers in the 2s, 4s 8s are even etc.

Also reading the tables and use visual representations of what 3x4 looks like - you'd not learn a play just by saying lines over and over. You need to read the lines and say them out loud and go from different starting points. You also need to see the play to learn when to say different ones. Using all the senses and being aware of metacognition enables the child to know which they find is the best way for them to learn.

Times tables is not really maths

It is rote learning, memorising. Useful, especially for those not actually good at maths (like me).

My DS really struggled with times tables at school, just could not learn them. Something in his brain resisted rote learning and blurting our answers, but he could always work them out. Just not fast enough. (Part of his SEN, processing issues, no visual recall, dyslexia etc )

So he was always bottom set maths in primary.

At secondary he turned out to be good at maths, and is now doing maths and further maths at college, and loves it.

But he still could not do his times tables I reckon

Took me very very long to understand time table learning is not actually a maths skill as such

@Patchworksack - yes the Times Tables Rockstars gets quite competitive!

Child of the sixties. Not only did we have our times-tables off pat well before going to junior school. We also had to master the intricacies of old money (240 pennies to the pound) and deal with imperial measures of weight and distance. And electronic calculators were still on the Apollo mission's drawing board.

The best way to learn the tables is repetition and constant testing

Meant to add:
The yr6 maths curriculum is pretty tough & relies on the children already having a solid understanding of arithmetic. Like someone else has said, times tables & the associated division/factors knowledge is the bedrock of most Primary School maths.

@Figgygal - there is not much point in doing a 'Soundcheck' as she doesn't have a clue about most of them so loses confidence.

My school do 2s at the end of reception, 5s and 10s in year 1, then introduce the others in year 2 and 3. All schools in England have to start doing the year 4 times tables tests so aiming to know them all by year 4 is pretty standard.

The memorising of the times tables and their associated division facts makes accessing the rest of Maths a lot easier.

Like PPs have said, being able to instantly recall 72=9x8 or 12x6 etc makes topics like area, fractions, factorising much faster. It also means your brain isn't spending so much time on the times table that it forgets what the original problem was in the first place.

I went to primary in the 90s and by year 4 I had learnt the 12 times timetable. It made maths so much easier and I really enjoyed the subject as a child. Keep encouraging your child.

Our school teaches all the times tables up to 12 x 12 by the end of the first term in Y3, including division and word problems and then is making them do TT rockstar “battles”between the classes...from reading this thread it sounds like they are trying to push them a bit too hard...

I knew mine up to 12 by Y2.

@Danglingmod - I can't really remember what we did tbh! It may have had low expectations but lots of us went to Grammar and got A/A* in GCSE so they obviously did something right!
However my autistic 12 year old can't retain any times tables. He's a year above in Maths so it is definitely possible to do all sorts of Maths without knowing your times tables. I'm not saying it's not a good thing but not essential.

Jesus, major flashbacks from this thread...Dad used to make me and the siblings recite all our tables before going to bed every night. If you made a mistake you’d have to start again. Think I knew them forwards and backwards by age 7. This is definitely not advisory though as I realise it’s fucking weird !

@TheHumansAreDefinitelyDead - sounds like my autistic boy! Has never been able to retain times tables. Luckily he didn't go to school so it never held him back. At 12 he's a year ahead in Maths so it is possible to do well if you can't manage the Times tables.

Just to add, it was early 90s for me so knowing your times tables by Y2 isn't particularly outdated.

My DD is in year two and can do all her times tables, she is at a good London prep

I knew all my times tables by the time I was 3 years old. We all did in the good old days when educations actually existed

There's no such thing as "a year above" in Maths.

He must understand how times tables work and be able to use them even if he can't memorise them. He is probably very efficient at this and has found his own tricks to get to answers quickly.

Times tables are essential for most students as long as they know the relevant division facts.

I'm fairly old at 54 and learnt the old school way of chanting them until they were in my head never to disappear, still have instant recall of all up to 12 times table.

Cant recall what year we did that by, but i have noticed with my two children the advantage of knowing the tables inside out without having to think about it. DD1 now nearly 20 just couldnt memorise them (or wouldnt, being very stubborn) and then suffered in secondary school with GCSE maths, being slow to finish things as she had to do mental maths to work out her tables.

DD2 (different type of learner alltogether) had them committed to memory and now in year 11 does not have to waste time working them out etc.

As PP's have said, if you can instantly recognise that say 9 is a factor of 54 etc, makes things so much easier.

@Friedmushroom - yikes!