being told by other kids that my DD is annoying

[ilovepenguins79]

This week i have had two separate girls (both age 5 and classmates in reception with my DD) come up to me, looking rather pleased with themselves, to tell me that they find my DD annoying due to the way she hugs (around the neck and we are working on this, she's just a bit unaware of personal space).
I was quite taken aback and responded 'thank you for letting me know, we can all be a bit annoying sometimes can't we?'.
DD can get a bit over excited and forgets herself but (and i know i am biased) i couldn't see her going out of her way to speak to her peers parents about anything let alone something like this.

AIBU to be a bit taken aback by this?

Great posts Math.

Shocked at the vitriol towards the little girls who are having their personal space violated but being blamed for bringing it up.

Now the OP is backtracking on a problem she knows her daughter has and that she has been working on but apparently the teachers haven't noticed her doing it despite OP acknowledging her daughter has problems respecting personal space. Yeah sure OP, you really do come across as a bully.

Also why is the OP's daughter due understanding from everyone while she learns to navigate social norms but these two young girls who are victims of her daughter's bad behaviour are not due the same courtesy? Ssmacks of hypocrisy.

No wonder. Young girls internalise that they should not speak about inappropriate touching, least it upset some "looking for any reason to be upset" adult

I think we can teach 5 year olds that someone invading their personal space is not okay and also teach them that it is not okay to go up to a mother they don't know and tell the mother their child is annoying, though - and to teach the hugging child to high five. All these things can be taught at the same time. And might not be assimilated immediately but keep saying it and eventually they will be.

I would tell my dc (at 5 years) to not go up to a mother they don't know and telling them their child is annoying again, if they did that. I would also say that if they felt uncomfortable with touching to tell me and to tell the teacher, not to just put up with it. And to not describe a classmate as "annoying" but instead to say "I don't want her to hug me". All of this.

To be fair, upthread people were saying we should applaud the two girls' confidence and ability to articulate, and the counter argument is that every time a child has the confidence to tell an adult that they feel uncomfortable then this can be applauded, but that if you applaud how they did it without teaching them better ways of doing it, they may end up being considered very rude as they get older.

@Unusualsuspicion I know! I think most things are actually pretty fine with the schools, just these one or two...er... cultural mismatches! Are you French?

justwithacuppaquickly
We tell children to approach a mother out with children if they are lost in a shop.

Why is it not ok to approach the mother? Is it to spare feelings? Because if so we need to examine what message we are giving children about the relative importance of their report vs the adult's discomfort. There should be no issue here. The children's right to approach an adult and describe a problem, especially a problem with unwanted physical contact, should trump all other concerns.

There is nothing wrong with describing a classmate as 'annoying' either. It is the truth as the child sees it. It is exactly how the hugging child is coming across to the child doing the reporting. An adult hearing this about her child should be able to get past her personal discomfort and look at the matter objectively. We should never try to get children to look after the feelings of adults, or to try to word their reports of their own experiences carefully in order not to cause upset. There is a huge safety interest at stake here that blows all the other considerations out of the water.

It is possible for a mother to say to the complaining child, "Thank you for telling me about this. It's important to tell if someone's touch bothers you. I hope you haven't been hurt by [DD]. I will talk to her and ask her to give a high five or another sort of hug that you might like better. Could you agree to be friends with [DD] and all try to get along together from now on?"

You can't on the one hand ask children to speak up and on the other hand set so many conditions for them to navigate, or expect them to take so many subtle nuances into account.

It is really important to not muddy the water here with considerations of 'rudeness'. Being rude is not really a problem anyway, objectively speaking, but avoiding rudeness or the appearance of rudeness, or the consequences of appearing rude is a massive problem.

Avoiding rudeness is tied in with the issue of showing proper respectfulness, not upsetting the apple cart, and the idea that complaining is inappropriate challenging of the elders and/or betters. It's how celebrities and respectable institutions get away with abuse of minors and other classes of people who are relatively disadvantaged.

Considerations of how they are seen by others as a result of complaining about unwanted touch will hit all girls like a tonne of bricks eventually, believe me. We don't live in an enlightened society yet, and it is easy to see why when you read this thread.

We had a mum a little like you in the playground. If a kid told her her darling little boy did anything she was quite quick and sarcastic in turning it round on to the child complaining.
He son has been expelled for two schools and is now a little shit and a drugs runner.
Not saying this will be your daughter btw, just saying these little girls are telling you something so you need to ensure your daughter learns not to do what many seem to be finding unacceptable, rather than ask if you are being unreasonable in being annoyed at 5 years old talking to you

It’s so so important for your child to try to help them not to be the annoying kid. OP, please listen

@justwithacuppaquickly yes I am. I suspect (hope!) things have changed a bit since I was at primary school 35(!) years ago, but the cultural gulf between the UK and France in attitudes to education is still vast. Not much quarter is given to sparing anyone's feelings in France! I think there is a lot wrong with it as a system, but I have noticed amongst other things that it's made me less sensitive to criticism. I've done adult courses in the UK where people seem to expect positive feedback as a given, and I'm like 'er they're the teacher, isn't the whole point for them to tell you in what ways you're doing it all wrong?'

Everything @mathanxiety just said. Well articulated and the point every poster is trying to make. Adult feelings are not as important as children learning to speak up.

Why is OP's child due consideration for learning appropriate personal space boundaries but these children are not due any consideration for being "smug" (note I completely disagree that they were or were even rude and think it is irresponsible to tell someone they could have worded their complaint better especially when they are 5 year old CHILDREN)?

Why is OP's daughter so special but the two victims are not?

Please please, do not suppress her personality

Who saying that?
The 2 girls have every right to say they do not want to be touched.

Hugging girl actually has no right to touch others against their will and being told this isnt suppressing her personality.

This thread makes it clear where girls learn the "dont tell if touched"
I spose MeToo is suppressing mens personality? in fact ive heard something similar metoo stops men being real men.....

Mathanxiety has nailed it

My son had a boy in his reception class who “high fived” very, very hard (don’t think he ment to hurt, but he did - just like your daughter). there was no reasoning with the parents , so most kids just stayed away from him. mum the complained that nobody was playing with him (of course not! who wants to be hit/strangulated!). Luckily his dad got involved, he was banned from high fiving and has friends now (they are in year 2 now, and back to normal behavior, including high fives)

I feel for you OP. My DD is also 5. She has ASD and when the reception children joined in September, took it upon herself to hug them in an attempt to make friends. The school are very strict in adopting a no hugging policy and we were spoken to about it.
It's probably best to teach her that not everyone likes hugs and not to do it at school.
I can see how the comments of her classmates upset you but at 5 they are easily forgotten.
Try not to take it to heart. Does your DD have friends who she plays with?

The poor OP is dealing with it! She has recognised the problem and is teaching her daughter to ‘high 5’ (a silly compromise between hugging and no physical contact that is best left to team sport, where it started).

The ridiculous talk about metoo etc is obscuring what is probably a nuanced situation of an affectionate small child hugging her friends more than they would like and wrongly.

The solution is for the children to work it out themselves with the guidance of the school (and their parents) who will be aware of what is actually happening (as opposed to some of the ridiculous assumptions on this thread). In a reception class there will always be two adults and they will understand exactly what is going on.

If the little girls are unhappy about it they can talk to their teacher and their parents can meet with a pastoral lead. If the school believes the OP’s daughter is in any way a threat, they will deal with it.

If the OP tells her daughter off on the strength of other people’s children’s unsubstantiated complaints, where is the OP’s daughter’s own safe space?!

Wrt other people’s children’s unsubstantiated complaints , the OP has freely admitted that her daughter is annoying and a neck hugger, Larry, and she has described exactly what is happening.

...they find my DD annoying due to the way she hugs (around the neck and we are working on this, she's just a bit unaware of personal space)....

...DD can get a bit over excited and forgets herself

The ridiculous talk about metoo etc is obscuring what is probably a nuanced situation of an affectionate small child hugging her friends more than they would like and wrongly

LOL.

How nuanced could this possibly be?

She is a neck hugger. Nobody likes that. End of story.

The 'ridiculous' talk of MeToo? The parallels of complaints about unwanted touch being ignored and reporters themselves being shat upon from a great height are clearly lost on you, sadly.

I have a dc that age and would be upset if her peerr used the word 'annoying' to describe them.

I would tell the teacher tbh, as at this age they can already start becoming a bit cliquey and there could be a mild form of (unintentional) bullying going on.

Girls this age have already started doing the 'telling tales' thing, where they love telling the teacher or grown up what a child is doing wrong,which the teacher should be putting a stop to.

I think the teacher should be telling these kids it's not very nice to call someone 'annoying' but it's ok to say if they're doing something they don't like.

Maybe just practice hugs with your DD so they're slightly less tight or round the neck etc.

mathanxiety
I don't agree with most of what you said in your post to me because:

Why is it not ok to approach the mother? Is it to spare feelings? no, nothing to do with sparing feelings of one particular adult.

It is not a good idea to teach dc to approach any adult, obviously, as not all will have the child's best interest at heart. Best to teach your child to speak to trusted adults such as teachers and their parents. Obviously if the child cannot trust their parent or the teacher then that is a problem, but that isn't what we are dealing with here.

We tell children to approach a mother out with children if they are lost in a shop I don't think this is good advice, better to go to the person on the till.

What I have said is not a subtle nuance or muddying waters.

Saying "x is touching me and I don't like it" is better than "x is annoying".

Being rude is a problem. As is bullying and exclusion.

If we teach our children assertiveness, respect for themselves and others, appropriate boundaries this would be better to help them navigate the world and challenge bad behaviour than what you are suggesting, I believe.

Girls this age have already started doing the 'telling tales' thing, where they love telling the teacher or grown up what a child is doing wrong,which the teacher should be putting a stop to.
Tattling/telling tales is to get someone in trouble, over unimportant/minor things, things that children could reasonably sort themselves, things that are harmless.

Telling an adult is when there's harm/hurt/danger, something has been done on purpose, an adult is required to rectify the situation, it's important

Some adults need to stop deciding that telling an adult is the same as tattling.

5 year old children are not telling tales or tattling because they want a peer to stop hugging them round the neck.

The metoo comments are entirely relevant when there's a adults in this thread suggesting that 5 year old girls should sort it out themselves if they don't like being hugged round the neck, that they are smug madams for daring to say they dislike unwanted physical contact etc.

Some adults should stop framing the way young children play and explore between themselves in the language of adults’ rights and boundaries. Frequently, games of it and play fighting go too far and a child ends up upset. Sometimes someone has gone too far, sometimes some children are over sensitive (yes, this is a real thing). There is nuance in this (as in adult sport with fouls and diving to get a penalty) and it needs someone who knows the children to see what is happening and decide on the reality of the situation.

You can bully by unwanted physical contact, you can also bully (especially given how many insist on believing every grievance) by making up (or exaggerating) stories and telling an adult in order to get someone in trouble. Children know this, teachers know this, armchair psychologists with an agenda, much less so...

I agree with larrygryllis

It's not framing play in an adult sexualised way!

It's saying that children have a right to have their personal space respected.

That means that they don't have to have their personal space invaded when they don't want it, they don't have to be pushed or pressured into giving hugs and kisses to friends and family, they don't have to accept that being tickled etc is just good fun and they should accept it because it's friendly.

The message "you decide on what physical contact you are comfortable with" isnt about sex. It's about bodily autonomy and learning boundaries.

I hate having to deal with other adults who think that because they're touchy feely everyone else should be. I don't want to hug most people. None of that is sexual. I just don't like it and it's absolutely my right to not want to be hugged.

It's no different for a child.

And a play fight that everyone was having fun with that goes too far and someone gets upset is nothing like repeatedly hugging people round the neck who don't want it.

The child came across like this ("smug") because your parenting was challenged by a child. An this child was right.

What is "safe hugging"?

Those girls done the right thing.

Children are not responsible for adult feelings nor do they have to frame unwanted advances "politely" for adults to take them seriously

Out of interest, were the reporter girls younger siblings at home? Annoying sounds like a word a slightly older child would use, so they may be quoting from home.
I hated being tickled and still do.

There is also a massive difference in going up to someone’s parent and saying ‘your daughter hugs when we don’t like it, please can you ask her to stop’ (acceptable and a polite appeal for adult intervention) and ‘your daughter is annoying’ (rude and completely unacceptable).

But if you are five, have a sibling who is nine and constantly accusing you of being annoying, that is in your vocabulary. I think it sounds fairly accurate too!

I hated being tickled and still do
But it's just friendly you know.

There is also a massive difference in going up to someone’s parent and saying ‘your daughter hugs when we don’t like it, please can you ask her to stop’ (acceptable and a polite appeal for adult intervention) and ‘your daughter is annoying’ (rude and completely unacceptable).
They're 5. They don't have to pander to an adult's feelings if they're fed up with having their personal space invaded.

I've known adults who are huggy / handset people. They can't seem to keep their hands to themselves, eg can't seem to say they like someone's jumper without touching it, can't seem to say hello/goodbye without a hug, seem to think saying hi to DC means stroking the baby's head etc. Their refusal to accept that not everyone likes hugs or wants physical contact makes them annoying.
Maybe if people had pointed out to them that unwanted physical contact is annoying when they were younger then they'd have got the message before they hit their teens.