To leave him to cry 😢

[cadburyegg]

DS2 was one of those awesome babies who slept through from 10 weeks but by the time he was 1 it all went to pot. Before Christmas he was spending the night in our bed every night and we were taking turns to sleep on the sofa as he would only go to sleep if he could take up 3/4 of the bed. For a couple of weeks after Christmas we took it in turns to sleep in his room, but neither of us can sleep well on the air bed so we were still sleep deprived. We have been trying to get out of his room the last few weeks but even when he settles down to sleep (which can take a long time) he wakes as soon as we leave the room.

He is now 22 months and we are doing gradual retreat now but it’s not really working as he just hurls everything out of his cot for attention. I have even left him to cry a few times but he screams for ages. So tonight he woke at 11 and is still wide awake, he’ll probably be awake for another hour then wake up again at 4 and the process starts again. We don’t put him down for a nap anymore during the day anymore but he does go to sleep in the car or pushchair. DH and I do take it in turns to get up with him.

I don’t know what to do and I’m at my wits end, AIBU to leave him to cry tonight?! We are so exhausted.

Sleep deprivation can be awful OP, so I do feel for you.
But I think that many parents put far too much emphasis on their children sleeping on their own from a young age. My belief is that in some children, this can make night time scary and make them feel anxious.
DS has slept with me every night since he was born - in a next to me to start and now just in my bed. He was 2 last October. He sleeps absolutely fine and we both get a good nights sleep (bar teething and illness) he has his own toddler bed and naps in it sometimes absolutely fine. We are going to try and transition him in to it at night soon. To be honest, I’m more worried that he will absolutely not care and not miss me at all in the night!!

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland
how very very strange to compare controlling how much junk food you allow yourself to eat, to a toddler having comfort withheld from him by his mother. Yes we don't no longer need to strive hard to find fat and sugar in modern society but toddlers and babies DO NEED comfort from their parents for healthy development - and co sleeping is nurturing and healthy - controlled crying is not.

Our responsibility to our children doens't just go away because its tiring or inconvenient to us to tend to a very real need for closeness that many babies/young children are biologically designed with, just because the Victorians waltzed in and decided that we should all have separate sleeping spaces from now on doesn't mean it made any biological sense.

Exactly this !

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

"We have a biological drive to eat a lot too but we work hard to override it because our environment has changed and we no longer live in a calorie constrained environment."

I'm afraid you've just destroyed your own point there. In western society where food is plentiful and we are eating more calories than we burn we have an obesity epidemic on our hands with something like 60% in the UK overweight and 30% odd obese. What does this tell us? That despite all the knowledge in the world of what is healthy and no matter what we are trying to do to "override" it we are failing miserably at it. This is because again we are hard wired and driven to consume fatty and sugar dense food to help combat times of famine, that as a western nation, we just dont have anymore. Even with all the knowledge in the world we still cant seem to change things because its innate. Its built in to homosapiens to eat when there is food available. Just because our circumstances have changed our brains just dont simply "change" and catch up. Evolution in a species can take hundreds and thousands of years, and who know what kind of food will be available in another 200 years.

This is exactly why our brains with regards to infant sleep haven't changed. Because evolution takes hundreds and thousands and thousands of years to come around. Separate sleeping spaces has been around for what 200/300 years? That's not nearly enough time for anything to change evolution wise.

"Children who have been sleep trained aren't placed in their cots in a silent, withdrawn state of neglected fear and panic every night! My son at 12m would snuggle happily in his cot, cuddling his favourite toy, very clearly relaxed, smile at me as i tucked him in."

Children who have been sleep trained are conditioned, not to actually sleep, (again this is a developmental thing) but are conditioned that no one is coming no matter how much of a fuss they make. They learn that making noise doesnt result in the caregiver coming so biologically its safer to just shut up as to not alert any predators. Just because your son does this doesnt mean its representative of all children. You are using an anecdotal account to cloud judgement as statistics would say different.

As a 2 week old my mum would put me down in my cot in a separate room and I'd just sleep right through, this biologically isnt the norm for most babies.

"No one is saying teach children to sleep alone 5 miles from another human. We are saying teach them that a few metres away in the next room, easily in ear shot, is proximity enough."

Theres been research to show that children under 3 sleeping in a different room to their parents have more stress on their hearts. And again, you cant "teach" sleep. And, again (that magic word) biologically speaking a few metres away for an infant brain would be a few metres too many in a different time and place from western 2020. In a different time and place that sleep development wise we have not yet adapted from, a few metres would be the difference in life and death.

You are applying adult logic to a situation that is based on physiological drives. The two dont go together.

I suggest going back to napping in the day, DS is the same age and has 2 hours in the day plus 11.5 at night; he doesn't sleep well if he doesn't get enough nap. At this age he also needs milk to fill up before sleep. Are you sure he isn't in pain from canine / molar teething, have you tried giving baby ibuprofen or calpol to settle him? Chewable toothbrushes are great for molar teething.
Mine wakes up a couple of times in the night, we had a horrible restless period for teething but his sleeps are gradually getting longer again now his canines are through. He just needed something to chew and a hug (and sometimes teething drugs).

Also if you're struggling to rest, can you just bring him in with you? I barely notice DS waking up when he's cosleeping, he just snuggles in and farts or whatever he needed to do then drifts off again and I do too.

'I do not understand why a mother would not have her child sleeping with her until he decides he wants to sleep separately. It's normal, natural and extremely cosy plus generally parents and child sleep better.'

This ^

Children who have been sleep trained are conditioned, not to actually sleep, (again this is a developmental thing) but are conditioned that no one is coming no matter how much of a fuss they make. They learn that making noise doesnt result in the caregiver coming so biologically its safer to just shut up as to not alert any predators.*

Rubbish. I sleep trained both of mine and they both still wake up and make noise if they need us - not well, bad dream, etc

@Yesterdayforgotten because I cannot sleep when my children are in my bed? Is that enough of a reason for you? I'm such a light sleeper that I get little to no sleep when I sleep in the same room as my kids, let alone when they're in my bed.

happydays00 I was quoting somebody else

@settlersofcatan

I'm talking about children as in babies/young infants who cannot vocalise if they have had a bad dream or do not feel well. Not older children who have the freedom to get out of bed and come and tell you. And the above isnt rubbish, it's been proven that a baby who is quiet in their cot alone and not crying can still have a high level of stress hormones without vocialising it as it is conditioned behaviour not to cry in terms of sleep training.

Also happy nobody was getting at your personally...why so angry?

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion .

If you have room, 2 x side by side single mattresses on baby’s floor helped us immensely. Baby goes to sleep next to you, you sneak off, when baby wakes you can lie together to soothe him and if you end up spending the rest of the night there its not a big deal.

Avoids getting him into the habit of coming to your bed, which otherwise seems to happen to everybody. Very few toddlers are happy to sleep alone because their instinct is screaming it’s not safe.

Leaving him alone to cry is traumatic to both of you. Opinions differ as to whether it does lasting harm, many say not, but it wasn’t something I would do and if you look at global approaches to childrearing, leaving a baby to cry alone is considered barbaric pretty much everywhere outside of pockets of UK/US. Eg shafiamonroe.com/babies-dont-cry-africa/

@Crazyoldmaurice

I am also talking about babies. I did controlled crying at 10 months and 6 months respectively and both sleep through. But it is obvious when they are unwell because even when pre verbal they would cry and then we go to them and can see if there is a temperature or tummy bug etc.

They do not feel that they can't cry if they need us even as babies. They just don't need anything to transition between sleep cycles

@settlersofcatan

"I am also talking about babies. I did controlled crying at 10 months and 6 months respectively and both sleep through"

I fail to see what your point actually is. Any type of sleep training at such a young age that involves any crying (especially at 6 months) IS conditioning a child not to require its caregiver in the night which isnt natural. You are saying your babies still cried if unwell etc like that is a normal thing, being unwell/bad dream shouldn't be the sole reasons a baby wakes up at night.
It isnt the biological norm for a baby to sleep through solidly when not ill. It is infact a safety measure for babies to wake up to help prevent SIDS so having a young baby at 6 months sleep through is not something anyone should be aimung for.

A 6 month old baby that goes from sleep cycle to sleep cycle because of sleep training has been conditioned, however you want to dress it up. Because again like I've mentioned before transitioning smoothly from sleep cycle to cycle is something which should happen naturally through brain development, which if at 6 months a baby is doing as a result of sleep training instead of natural development letting it happen naturally, its forcing it through absence of a response. If it happens naturally then fair enough, I was one of those kids, but it isnt the norm.

Cry it out, controlled crying or however you do it is stressful for parents to do for a reason; it goes against every instinct we have to let a BABY cry, especially when it's just because we have decided we are too exhausted/want our evenings back. This point is proven by the fact OP had to even write this thread.

I must admit like OP is saying when a baby hits 18 months + there hits a point when you think "fgs shouldn't you be sleeping through by now" but cripes, I cannot get my head around thinking that of a 6 month or 10 month old and being so desperate I'd sleep train them, no matter how exhausted I was.

@Crazyoldmaurice - you said that sleep trained babies stopped crying because they knew no one would come. I am telling you that that didn't happen to mine - they do cry when they are ill, they don't stay quiet so predators don't attack them

Yes. I think YABU to leave him.

He's a baby. He needs you.

He may also need milk at night.

@settlersofcatan

Your babies crying only when ill isnt the only reason a normal non sleep trained baby should wake and cry though. Only crying from being actually physically unwell as a response to pain isnt the same as a baby who's needs are always met who is likely to cry for ANY reason knowing someone will come to them.

Seems like a typical learnt behavioural response to me.

At 22 months too old , too old to start controlled crying.

I had a child who didn’t sleep through till he was 4. People whose kids sleep think they are doing it , there is an element of luck . My Ds now has a diagnosis of Adhd ( not suggesting your child does btw)

I did gradual retreat. You need to ignore the throwing. I just sat and read a book. It takes time though it really isn’t a quick fix.

settlers ignore crazyoldmaurice nothing you will say will sink in

This issue is always divisive. There's high quality research indicating that sleep training does no harm & results in babies and children getting more sleep overall, which is beneficial for health and development. Over & out.

He is very little. Mine were co sleeping at that age and older. I don't think there is anything wrong with you giving him a cup of milk at night, some people say milk and milky drinks promote sleep. I often have warm milk.

Let him sleep with you.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland - there seem to be misunderstandings all around. Cosleeping babies like mine get all their sleep, they sleepily reach for a cuddle or a boob and sleep through while having it, they aren't getting up at all and are rarely fully awake. The idea that they're sitting up half the night is a strange one, maybe based on what babies do who are left in a cot on their own.

I left all of mine to cry and certain points (mainly when they were wake up all night). Did lots of other things too (routines, massage, stories etc). The longest one cried for 20 minutes. It was far better than me being woken every 45 minutes and going insane. Ive seen so many cosleeping or parents that refused cc be so knackered they are snappy with their kids and each other. Personally I think being ignored for less than half an hour a couple of times is far less emotionally damaging than some of the exhausted parents behaviour I've seen. A women I know still moans everytime I see her about her daughter keeping her awake she is 10. Her poor DD must hear her moan all the time as it's most times we bump into each other.
Mine are all wonderful, well adjusted kids, aged 14,12 and 9. If ill they come in for a cuddle and the 9 year old will sleep with us. They definitely haven't been emotionally damaged by cc in any obvious way. No anxiety, low moods, emotionally open to us, affectionate generally sunny personalities. They of course have their moments but who doesn't. Before I left the eldest to cc (we had tried everything gentle and co sleeping was killing me as he just wanted BFing every 20 mins) I was a wreck. I remember sobbing on the floor and then shouting at my husband when he got home as exhausted. Not sure that was great for anyone.

Sometimes when I leave DD to have a grumble for five minutes at bedtime she’ll then settle down and sing happily or grab a book from her shelves and start ‘reading’ it. I just cannot tally that with this idea that she must be hugely stressed because I ‘ignored’ her cries and that she is a damaged insecure child who doesn’t think her mum will appear when she cries.

BTW I’m never ‘ignoring’ her cries. I tend to be listening to whether she sounds distressed or just a bit irritable and planning my next move based on that.

Just because a parent chooses to do some sleep training it doesn’t mean they are neglecting the child’s needs.

Although for 90% of her life DD has gone to bed easily and slept well, I have, when she’s seemed to be forming a habit of making a fuss at bedtime, done sleep training with her.

This doesn’t mean that I always ignore upset at bedtime or night wakings and it doesn’t mean I think a distressed child should be left to it. Because DD’s bedtimes tend to be smooth then when she does make a fuss as a one off then I know there’s an issue and will do whatever’s needed to help her relax to go to sleep (I cuddled her to sleep the other night).

I know lots of very content children from 2-18 who have loving relationships with their parents who were sleep trained. There’s much more to parenting and building a bond than what happens at a toddler’s bedtime. If some careful sleep training is done within the context of a parent-child relationship that is loving, engaged, warm and stable then we are talking about something that is a million miles away from an otherwise neglected child being left to scream themselves to sleep night after night.

There is a middle ground.

Could he be thristy in the night? I'd give my two water first if they'd woken at that age in the night. Usually they were just a bit thristy but didn't often need milk in the middle of the night.