To not know how to handle battle of wills and tantrums with 4yo DS

[ButIDontWantto]

Party posting in here for traffic, but also because I think I am BU for not knowing how best to handle this. (I've also name changed)

DS (4.5) is mostly lovely, sweet, good natured, etc, but has always been, er, strong willed and prone to tantrums. He's quite straightforward, but also quite sensitive. Had epic meltdowns between about 18m & 2.5 about stuff like getting dressed. They seemed to have gone away, but the battle of wills and therefore tantrums have returned with a vengeance in the past few weeks. Possibly also relevant - he has a massive preference for DH (who is primary carer as I work FT, albeit from home a lot) and has been this way for ages (since about 18 months). He's not started school yet and no big changes or anything else going on at home. He's at nursery 4 days a week, where he is an angel (of course). We have an older DD (6), who he adores.

He has a couple of main triggers (around morning and bedtime routines) which basically come down to him wanting (or not wanting) things to be done a certain way (e.g. he currently only wants DH to bath him). Things can quickly escalate to DS shouting at us. Standard response to that ('ignore' or 'consequences') then quickly escalate shouting to a tantrum, which then take forever for him to calm down from.

I know it's about control. But the old 'give him two choices' trick has never, ever worked with him. Some of the stuff isn't an issue really (it's annoying for DH to have to bath him each night, but not a big deal really), but some of it is more obstructive (e.g. he comes into our bed for about 20 mins each morning, which is fine, but then kicks off when it's time to get up - obviously we can't give in to that as we have to get up to get everyone to school/ work/ nursery on time!).

So - any tips? Frankly it makes me feel like a shit parent (not least the ongoing preference for DH/ rejection of me) and it's making the atmosphere at home in the mornings/ evenings horrible :(

Can you give him two options for things so he feels like he has some control? Obviously both choices that you're happy with so ultimately you're still guiding the situation.

A friend of mine used a lot of visual aids to help with tantrums around routine. So she put up the morning and evening routines in picture form on the kitchen wall- morning would have a drawing of clothes, toothbrush, breakfast then shoes for example. Her kids could see the next steps that were coming and it seemed to help them prepare for it a bit each day.

The two options thing has NEVER worked with him. Eg. Me: 'DS would you like to wear your jeans or brown trousers?' DS: 'NOTHING! I don't want to get dressed'. Me: 'ok would you like to get dressed in my room or your room'. DS: 'NOTHING. I don't want to get dressed anywhere.' Etc. If he doesn't want to do something/ wants something a certain way then there is no way of persuading him otherwise when he's in that frame of mind.

Sigh.

I had a dd like this. I completely sympathise.
We tried everything, eventually we made huge progress with a visual reminder of her good and bad behaviour. Think I stole it from super nanny.

So I got a jam jar and some of those craft Pom Poms from the pound shop.
Made a list of the of the behaviours I wanted her to correct. Start with one or two.
She got a Pom Pom in the jar every time she was good and one taken away when it didn’t go well. We had huge apocalyptic tantrums when she had Pom Poms taken away, if you go with this be prepared, ours was also a getting ready in the morning and the first few mornings were so hard!!!
But it did start to work after the morning she got dressed and me and elder dd danced round the kitchen as younger dd put her Pom Pom in the jar. She had over the top praise all day.

At the end of the week if she did well she got a treat, in our case a kinder egg.

I would bath him yourself preparing him in advance, as at some points you will need to.

Does he have any sensory/speech etc issues as just wondering if the tandrums are maybe asd?

My dds are both very strong willed and dressing and bedtimes are flashpoints.

You’re not a bad mum, we all middle through this the big way we can 💐☕️🧁

Bloody auto correct, that should be we all muddle though the best way we can 🤦‍♀️

Thanks!

No - no sensory or speech issues. No concerns re. asd. He's just bloody stubborn!

Yes - I hadn't thought of the marble jar thing. That's a good idea. Although he's quite unbribable. But worth a try!

Oh - and he will let me bath him and put him to bed if DH is out! It's just if we're both around (which is most the time) he wants DH to do everything for him. It's wearing for DH and hard for me too, in a different way.

OK forget choices, try explanations, and give them at a different time so you aren't provoking a battle of wills.

Start a discussion. Say 'you didn't want to get dressed this morning, was it because you wanted to walk around with no clothes on today? It seemed a bit cold to me.''
See if he can articulate why he didn't want to do it, and why he likes things to be done a certain way.

I'd suggest watching lots of super nanny for tips, I wish I had done when my child was still a feral beast (kidding, kind of )

You can watch full episodes free on YouTube and they have tips for kids who has a parent work away a lot etc

I totally empathise with you. I have a just turned 3 year old who has been like this for what feels like forever. He's the loveliest, funniest little boy but so stubborn. I also feel like a shit parent. I think quite often there is a narrative going on that I don't understand. It's very draining

Thelnebriati I have tried that. But he's not in any way rational.
Me: 'DS why didn't you want us to open the curtains in the bedroom this morning?'
DS: 'because I didn't want the curtains open'.
Me: 'but why not? We have to open the curtains so we can find our clothes'
DS: 'I don't like it when you open the curtains'
Me: 'why not?'
DS: 'because I don't like it. I wanted the curtains to stay closed'.
And so on. Never really gets us anywhere.

So yes, user1467 I know what you mean about there being a narrative you don't understand. And yes, so so draining. On all of us. Poor DD (who had her own issues when she was this age, but is pretty level-headed now) is a stalwart about it all, but I can tell she hates it when he's upset and when DH and I get frustrated with DS/ each other.

Itsnoalwaysme I'm not generally a fan of the SuperNanny style approach, but I am willing to try anything so I'll look out those clips!

So he’s telling you things through his tantrums. If you can show you understand, it might help. So your morning example, clearly he loves his morning snuggle with you and doesn’t want it to end - so:

“Ok we have time for three more big cuddles and then we all have to get up - I wish we didn’t, I love laying here with you” “NO, I don’t WANT to get up” “me neither, it sounds like you wish you could have us around all day?” “yes”. “I really love snuggling with you too. I’m already looking forward to it again tomorrow - now is it toast or cereal this morning?”

“NO I don’t want to get up” “me neither kiddo but that’s the way it goes” and then get up and walk off and start getting ready.

It’s always suggested on here but How to Talk do your kids will listen and listen so your kids will talk was a big game changer for me with my stubborn and strong willed child. He’s older now but at that age he was so difficult but I just wasn’t asking the right questions. I thought I had to be all about the strictness and control and it just meant we butted heads constantly.

I’m there with you, mine starts school in September and I’m panicking! He does have a tendency to play up at nursery too but not as badly as at home, he is just so strong willed, it is absolutely draining to be reasoning with a nearly 4yo all the bloody time!

Distraction sometimes works for us but not always, just muddling along too!

And the curtains conversation - you don’t need to get drawn into a long conversation - just a “we open the curtains in the morning so we can see our stuff” “I don’t like it” “yes I see that”

Yes, we do adopt that type of 'How to Talk so Kids Listen' approach Ozgirl75, it worked really well with DD when she went through various tricky stages. And I prefer to talk to my children like human beings, rather than objects that I'm trying to control or bend to my will! However, with DS he tends to not respond well to it at all. So, this is how it would go:
Me/DH: 'You really don't like it when we open the curtains do you?'
DS: 'STOP TALKING TO ME'
me/DH: 'You'd much rather stay in bed wouldn't you?'
DS: 'STOP TALKING TO ME. DON'T LOOK AT ME'
At which point it then starts escalating, etc.

He seems completely impervious to any of the tips, tricks and strategies that worked with DD or seem to work on other children. It was the same with the epic tantrums when he was smaller. Nothing worked - he just had to go through them in his own time on his own terms, even if that meant, e.g., one of us carrying him under our arm, him shouting bloody murder and half naked, down the road so that we could get DD to school on time.

Gosh, he sounds awful, doesn't he? But honestly, he's gorgeous and funny and sweet most of the time. Just that when he's not he's really not!

But maybe he doesn’t want that much control, that much choice? Maybe it’s scary to him.
What would happen if you gave him prior warning and then said: X is going to happen, yes I know you don’t like it but that’s what is going to happen. (We are opening the curtains, hmm I know you don’t, but tough luck).
I also find that explanations with kids work best when they are wound up. When they are, I find it aggravates them more.
He may be an angel in nursery because he has to be and then lets it out at home. He may be an angel because they have a rigid structure and there is no arguing and that suits him fine.

When they are *NOT wound up.

No I think he definitely wants all the control Hulo! If we just open the curtains (which we do every morning, of course) that's when the shouting starts and it tends to snowball from there.

But this is actually reminding me of something I did when DD was going through a difficult phase that helped. I don't think I spend anywhere near enough one-on-one time with DS and I do remember that doing the thing where you spend time with them doing whatever it is they want to do (as in 'DS, we have 45 minutes and I'll do whatever you want - would you like to do puzzles or play lego, etc') works quite well to give them a sense of control and that their needs and desires are being met. It's tricky because I work full time and then weekends we tend to all four do things together. But maybe I'll get DH to take DD off somewhere for a morning this weekend so that DS and I can spend some time together.

I second Ozgirl's advice. I read that book and it was a game changer. I find that acknowledging their upset and empathising with it, would go a long way to head off the tantrum. Also, the 'i wish we had a magic wand, then we could (e.g.) stay in bed all day' worked well.
The other thing i would suggest is really picking your battles. So the curtain thing, i would acknowledge they didn't want them open (for whatever reason) and leave them shut and turn the light on instead.
Ditto, the bath thing, I appreciate it's hard on your dh having to do it each night, but the battle for you to do it, can't be very relaxing either. He will at some point grow out of this phase and you will be the preferred parent for a time.
In terms of the choice of 2, that can sometimes work, but if they are getting overwhelmed even a choice between 2 things can seem like too much.
Reassure yourself that what seems stubborn at his age, will in time work in his favour as hopefully he will be his own counsel and will not be easily led in later life.

I was going to recommend How To Talk... But I see you've tried it!

Re curtains - could you try something playful here (and maybe a game only YOU play, to break through the DH preference)?

"Oh DS, you don't want to open the curtains! You want to get dressed in the dark! Let's see if we can find your clothes in the dark! Here's a torch - help me find your pants!"

See if you can get him on board by throwing him a curve ball. My girl has total patterns or tantrum, and we can see her gearing up to it as soon as we start the "ok, we need to brush your teeth now" routine (for example). The only way to swerve it is to change the routine - definition of madness is doing the same thing and expecting a different result! If opening the curtains is a trigger, then DON'T - opening the curtains isn't really what you want, what you want is him dressed and not tantrumming - that can happen without the curtains open, that just seems like such an innofensive and LOGICAL first step to you (and any sane grown up ) it's hard to see past that.

Good luck! I'm the preferred parent in our house, and while it's hard on me in terms of never getting a free minute it's my DP I feel sorry for - kids require so much devotion and to have that repaid with rejection must be very painful sometimes (and frustrating!) It will go in phases, we all know it but it's hard to believe in the moment!

Not read it all but sounds like you are giving him too many choices and it’s making his head spin. Try dialling it back. Give him fewer choices and more immediately consequences. Most children would be little shits if given too much free rein to rule the roost. If my child shouted at me for opening the curtains once, I would have knocked that shit on the head straight away! You are the parent, demand respect, even for the small stuff.

You are the parent, you make the rules and you and dad MUST collectively carry out the consequences. For every failure to do as he’s asked there has to be a consequence. Not getting dressed, no TV. Refusing to sit at the table for dinner, no soft play later. Being rude and cheeky, time Out. All with patience and no shouting, but a very clear stance that doesn’t move or vary based on his behaviour. And tasks like bath time and bedtime are divided up as convenient for you and dad, he is playing you both and you are allowing it. Stop it, and take back control. 4 is not too late, but you need to get a handle on this before he starts school or the first couple of years will be dreadful for him, you and his teachers.

BeIng a disciplinarian is hard work. It is not The easy option. It takes commitment, patience and the head space to realise that short term pain creates long term gain. the opposite is also true - giving in constantly creates a real long term issue. Schools have to grapple with kids who are given too many choices and too little discipline, and it takes up an inordinate amount of teaching time. Don’t be ‘that mum’ anymore.

Dividing, demand respect? I always thought true respect had to be earned.

I have a 3 yo like this, no advice, just sympathy, and gin. And hoping that by the time he's 15, he'll display the same levels of intransigence about drink and drugs and he does now about wearing underpants.

That he does now*