To not know how to handle battle of wills and tantrums with 4yo DS

[ButIDontWantto]

Party posting in here for traffic, but also because I think I am BU for not knowing how best to handle this. (I've also name changed)

DS (4.5) is mostly lovely, sweet, good natured, etc, but has always been, er, strong willed and prone to tantrums. He's quite straightforward, but also quite sensitive. Had epic meltdowns between about 18m & 2.5 about stuff like getting dressed. They seemed to have gone away, but the battle of wills and therefore tantrums have returned with a vengeance in the past few weeks. Possibly also relevant - he has a massive preference for DH (who is primary carer as I work FT, albeit from home a lot) and has been this way for ages (since about 18 months). He's not started school yet and no big changes or anything else going on at home. He's at nursery 4 days a week, where he is an angel (of course). We have an older DD (6), who he adores.

He has a couple of main triggers (around morning and bedtime routines) which basically come down to him wanting (or not wanting) things to be done a certain way (e.g. he currently only wants DH to bath him). Things can quickly escalate to DS shouting at us. Standard response to that ('ignore' or 'consequences') then quickly escalate shouting to a tantrum, which then take forever for him to calm down from.

I know it's about control. But the old 'give him two choices' trick has never, ever worked with him. Some of the stuff isn't an issue really (it's annoying for DH to have to bath him each night, but not a big deal really), but some of it is more obstructive (e.g. he comes into our bed for about 20 mins each morning, which is fine, but then kicks off when it's time to get up - obviously we can't give in to that as we have to get up to get everyone to school/ work/ nursery on time!).

So - any tips? Frankly it makes me feel like a shit parent (not least the ongoing preference for DH/ rejection of me) and it's making the atmosphere at home in the mornings/ evenings horrible :(

Ha - yes hopefully he'll be putting on his underpants without resistance at 15!

Apologies if this has been suggested up thread and I missed it. Also, apologies if you've already gone through all this! My four (just about to be 5) year old is mostly fine but has times of being extremely selective in his willingness to do things and also being belligerent and frankly looking to pick a fight. This obviously isn't the same behaviour as tantrums but I've found when he's in one of his "looking for conflict" type moods that unswerving indifference from me throws him off kilter. So if he doesn't come for breakfast or whatever and I'm in a hurry, I act totally nonchalant, a toneless "fine, it's up to you". Walk off and carry on acting like normal and ignoring him. He usually sulks and strops, hides etc but I can stick it out longer than him and act like it really doesn't affect me. After a period of time I give him a friendly but not effusive opening to come and do what he should and he usually takes it as he's got bored of being cross and we don't discuss the mood at all. Or he cracks and asks for something like the Tv on - I always calmly say "it's up to you, do xxxx and you can have it" then disengage. If he throws a tantrum I repeat the criteria for getting what he wants then walk away.

Otherwise, my son is desperate for positive reinforcement and I have to heap him with extravagant praise for even very basic things, but when I do his behaviour improves accordingly. I also found he went through a major boundary pushing phase after he turned four, and feel like we've spent a lot of time having to reinforce what he'd previously not questioned. I guess it's an inevitable development as I know a lot of people who went through the same at this age. Interestingly school has been helpful for him to accept some rules are not to be challenged.

We also now give a frankly absurd amount of warnings before a situation changes eg need to turn the tv off - so I set a timer on my phone and say "you have 4 more minutes". Then 1 minute, then 30 seconds etc. I also force him to agree when I set the timer what happens next (eg he will go and clean his teeth without delay). It feels a bit overkill but has really helped.

@inthehammock but if you're in a hurry does he give in before you? DS has amazing staying power!

OP I have the 3yo version of your son.

No advice from me, I can't deal with it either! This thread has some tips I'm going to try though.

I don’t think the respect of children can be earned when they are 2/3/4 in the same way as an adult would garner, say, the respect of their peers. Maybe that’s the problem with this generation of parents. The idea that I have to earn the respect of my 2 year old is laughable. I will always parent reasonably (as I said in my post, no shouting, always calm) but it’s my job to ensure that they understand the basic premise of parent and child as, at that age, one of authority v subservience. Leader v follower. Boss v underling. If I say stop, near a road, I need them to stop. If we are out and about, I need total recall to ensure their safety. And in order to ensure that their life is calm and safe, I need them to do what I ask, when I ask them. That is parenting.

When they are older, like mine are at 8 and 10, it’s a bit different of course. Then respect definitely needs earning more because they have more autonomy over certain things including their own care and safety. But not at 4, when there hasn’t been sufficient discipline thus far.

If more parents demanded respect our schools would do an awful lot more teaching and a lot less crowd control.

I also had an extremely stubborn, demanding and often difficult second child. The rules Of parenting didn’t change. In fact, it made them even more important.

There are definitely days where he defies my tactics! Usually it does work but to be honest, where possible we also factor in a decent amount of contingency time. We aim to get up before the children so we're sorted already and as he can't yet read the time, I mainly just start every process 10 mins or so before we really need to. We usually get to school a few mins early so he can play with his friends before going in and he's learnt his misses out on that if he really pisses about.

There are of course mornings and bedtimes which end up a mixture of us doing things for him he should be doing and issuing various threats like "only boys who do good listening get to go to Dylan's party At the weekend" or whatever. They can be unpredictable little buggers.

I have no advice, I'm afraid, just sympathy because my four-year-old is like this too and it drives me crackers. Except that I'm the preferred parent in the scenario - not because of anythng I've done or that DH has/hasn't to my knowledge.

OzGirl when I read your first post I knew you'd read How To Talk etc.
Such a good book and worked wonders with my wilfullest son at that age.

Oh and we have the parental preference thing too - without any apparent logic. It's bad enough when one does it but they also play each off against other and insist they desperately want the same parent in situations where it's not possible. Just riding that one out and praying for it to pass...

Sounds like my DD!
I have to give her loads of notice if something is about to change. So the getting out of bed example. I'll start prepping her 5 mins before it happens, remind her, talk about what's going to happen. Then I'd ask her if she can help me open the curtains etc....
it's bloody exhausting if I'm honest but it does head off a couple of tantrums here and there. But she's only about to turn 3, I'm expecting to be challenges way more in the coming months....!

If he strops getting out of your bed don't let him in. Tell him he can only get in if he gets out nicely. If he doesn't then the next morning tell him no. He will have an almighty tantrum but it will work. The choice about getting dressed would be get dressed or sit in time out, your choice. He's making everyone late and causing stress. Tell him it's not ok. You've got to be stronger willed than him OP. I wouldn't carry on letting him cause stress for everyone.

Oh yes I have a 4 year old like that. Epic, epic tantrums, nothing like DC1. I'm pretty sure the reason is that she cannot yet identify her feelings properly and deal with them.

The 'acknowledging feelings' helps most of the time, I was gobsmacked when I tried it the first time.
If not, cheerfully walking away works sometimes -OK I see you don't want to do X, we can wait a little - I will be back soon to see if you want to do X later.
Sometimes she just wants us to sit with her until she calms down.

Yes if you're in a hurry then it's super stressful, but yellling at mine or forcing her to do something simply does not work. She does not care about any consequences like taking privileges away when she's in such mood - but she does care about people.
Does yours? How about 'I understand you don't want to put shoes on, but if you don't want to put shoes on, we cannot take you to school. And then your teacher and friends will be sad. You don't want them to be sad, no?'

Believe it or not, we have tried that @measelsmumpsandweasels! Many times. And it doesn't work. It usually results in him digging his heels in about everything and the whole morning/ evening becomes a battle. My point in the OP was that the more we 'hold our ground' the worse it makes things (it makes him escalate into a tantrum which firstly means it takes much longer to get through the morning routine and secondly makes a horrible start or end to the day for everyone).

I came on here for some other ideas that I might not have thought of that don't just involve getting into a battle of wills with a 4-year-old.

Thanks for those who've given me some alternative ideas. I think we can definitely give him more time warnings/ countdowns (which I remember now worked with DD when she was his age). Allowing more time in the morning would be a good idea too (DH is guilty of getting up as late as possible). I think the marble jar thing would work with him too (DS, not DH!). And I'm going to re-read (again) 'How to Talk...'. Those strategies haven't worked with DS before (see my previous post on how he responds to that kind of communication!), but it's worth another try...

Ooh that's a good idea @KatharinaRosalie. He's recently developed very strong empathy (particularly around characters in films - he cries if anyone is sad, which rules out most films) and is very attached to 3 friends at nursery. So I think the whole, 'you can't be late because Johnny will be sad if you're not there to play with when he arrives' would actually work really well with him. Thanks!

Sympathies OP, my just turned 4 year old DD is very similar.
Shes a brilliant child, funny, smart, kind, energetic. But she fucking hates being told what to do! Likes everything to be ‘just so’. On an emotional rollercoaster a lot of the time.
My DD1 never tantrummed in her life. She’s now 14 and still very chilled. DD2 has more than made up for it!

She’s great in school, she just seems to save the bullshit for home

Commiserations. With DC1 I was in the 'just show them who's the boss!' camp but DC2 is my punishment for that smugness

I should add, I have felt like a shit parent many times over the past 4 years. But I’m not. DD is just so different to her sister and requires a different style of parenting. Yes it’s very draining.

Some children were sent here to test us!

Yes, DD and DS are very different, in terms of emotional temperament and require such different parenting skills when they are going through 'tricky' patches, which just makes the whole thing so much bloody harder.

And not a day goes by that I don't feel like a shit parent. Compounded by stupid maternal guilt that I'm the beta parent and am therefore not a 'proper mother'. DS's ongoing (approx 3 years and counting) strong preference for DH doesn't help with that!

Hey ho. Hopefully we won't fuck them up too much.

Don't beat yourself up Op!! I wasted many hours thinking I'd screwed up my bond with the youngest because she mainly slept on DH for naps instead of me when she was a newborn (he was letting me rest when he could have her) and I found all I could remember was him holding her and not me. I know it sounds silly but she significantly preferred DH for the first two years of her life and I thought it was my fault. Now the fickle little bugger has switched her preference^^ to me. She's also completely crackers and the most stubborn person I've met. In fact, when I wrote my replies, I was thinking that I'd be starting this thread again myself in two years because every stage I come to with my youngest makes me realise just how much easier I had it with her brother. On the up side, I'm kind of thrilled she's such a ... character.

My DD is also 4, and also exactly like this!
An irritatingly, a complete angel at nursery! She has friends there who she adores so that’s often a good motivator, sometimes I even pretend I’m messaging a friend’s mother “oh Peter’s mummy has just said he’s already finished brushing his teeth, he’ll be ready for nursery soon!”.
Also we got nursery involved as she loves her teachers, and this has worked every single time. Her key worker had a stern word with her about behaviour at home, and also spoke to me about it in front of DD, so that she knew we were talking and on the same page! Then she had a sticker chart at nursery that the teachers doled out stickers for. So every morning I had to say “we’ve had a wonderful morning of behaviour Mrs Teacher” (or not if that’s the case!) and the teacher would give praise and a sticker. This was such a motivator for her, I think the idea of them seeing her bad behaviour was horrendous to her, and it worked like a charm, she never missed a sticker!

Mine also gets into bed with me in the middle of the night and then talks in his sleep. So every hour through the night I have to listen to him shouting 'no, I don't want to'. No rest for the wicked!
I lie in bed with him as he's going to sleep at night and tell him over and over how brilliant he his and how much I love him. Trying to balance out the feelings of wanting to stick nails in my eyes that I experience most days

I love the idea of pretending to text friends' parents @Fullbookcase! I might try that one. Pretending to text his grandparents, who he adores, might work too...

Ha, that's bloody taking the biscuit user14! Although this reminds me that DS, having always been a completely independent sleeper and the one who was easy to put to bed and quick to go to sleep, has started insisting I sit with him after lights out for five mins or so (he's usually asleep within that time). It's completely new as of a few weeks ago and coincides with his crappy behaviour. There's clearly sort of developmental stuff going on with him. He also randomly asked DS 'when will we die?' this morning . So fingers crossed that this too shall pass (very quickly)...

My 3 year old twins are like this- can be very strong willed over the smallest things. They tag team in and out too. I have 4DCs and work full time and honestly I pick my battles. If one of them was kicking off about the curtains being opened, I’d leave them shut. That’s not the hill I want to die on. Of course in my case the other one would demand them open! I try and get them to do stuff I need them to do before the stuff they want to do (get dressed so we can have breakfast, get out of the bath so we can have story etc). If they’re kicking off then oh too bad, we can’t have story tonight. One of them particularly sounds like your son, he gets angry over something stupid like his cereal bar broke and shouts at me ‘LEAVE ME ALONE MUMMY I DONT WANT YOU!’ In which case fine, go to your room. I’ll be here with hugs when you cheer up. Hitting, kicking, throwing things, they get a warning then go to their room. I try and be tough on the big stuff and let the little stuff go. Remember it’s a phase, my DD2 was a horrendous toddler, the worst of all of them and she’s 7 now and perfectly lovely 😊

Oh I also threaten them with calling Santa which is still working well even in January