To not know how to handle battle of wills and tantrums with 4yo DS

[ButIDontWantto]

Party posting in here for traffic, but also because I think I am BU for not knowing how best to handle this. (I've also name changed)

DS (4.5) is mostly lovely, sweet, good natured, etc, but has always been, er, strong willed and prone to tantrums. He's quite straightforward, but also quite sensitive. Had epic meltdowns between about 18m & 2.5 about stuff like getting dressed. They seemed to have gone away, but the battle of wills and therefore tantrums have returned with a vengeance in the past few weeks. Possibly also relevant - he has a massive preference for DH (who is primary carer as I work FT, albeit from home a lot) and has been this way for ages (since about 18 months). He's not started school yet and no big changes or anything else going on at home. He's at nursery 4 days a week, where he is an angel (of course). We have an older DD (6), who he adores.

He has a couple of main triggers (around morning and bedtime routines) which basically come down to him wanting (or not wanting) things to be done a certain way (e.g. he currently only wants DH to bath him). Things can quickly escalate to DS shouting at us. Standard response to that ('ignore' or 'consequences') then quickly escalate shouting to a tantrum, which then take forever for him to calm down from.

I know it's about control. But the old 'give him two choices' trick has never, ever worked with him. Some of the stuff isn't an issue really (it's annoying for DH to have to bath him each night, but not a big deal really), but some of it is more obstructive (e.g. he comes into our bed for about 20 mins each morning, which is fine, but then kicks off when it's time to get up - obviously we can't give in to that as we have to get up to get everyone to school/ work/ nursery on time!).

So - any tips? Frankly it makes me feel like a shit parent (not least the ongoing preference for DH/ rejection of me) and it's making the atmosphere at home in the mornings/ evenings horrible :(

Something that works with my son who has Autism is when giving 2 options make 1 of them something you know they don't like.

Then he has control but doesn't have to make any decisions.

How sad that you have to threaten to tell Santa or a child’s grandparents to gain some control. Grow some balls people! Just wow.

Just to say my DS was a monster in the 6 months before he started school! He started school in September and things have been much better. I think he needed a bit more mental stimulation than nursery was giving him!

@Dividingthementalload
Very good posts, of which I totally agree.

OP, your guilt is hindering your parenting.
You sound like a great Mum.

However, it reads as if your son is ruling the house......this is such a bad dynamic.
He is not going to a abdicate that throne, believe me.
He will become even more dictatorial.

Somehow you are going to have to impose your will with rules, consequences and non-negotiables.
He needs the security of knowing that YOU are the boss, not him.

The teenage years are another lesson in parenting when you are parent first, friend second.

💐

@billy1966 Absolutely SPOT on.

Two books that have helped me with my rather similar 7yo are 10 Days to a less Defiant Child and The Explosive Child. There are good practical tips in both. If I was a single parent maybe I'd try the authoritarian approach, but I'm not and DH could never manage it. Also, when problematic behaviours are due to anxiety, 'my way or the highway' does rather tend to make them worse.

Basically, DD knows I'm the boss. That's got nothing to do with her freaking out over things she finds stressful. The more you can understand what the issue actually is (sometimes it's just the level of maturity), the more likely you are to be able to solve it.

Do we share the same DS by any chance OP? 🤣

Mine is 5 and will literally chop his own nose off to spite his face. He is unbelievably stubborn.

I managed to break it about 6months ago, I literally played hard ball, I use to stare my *enemy" in the face an stake him on. He had to lear I was in charge. We once sat on the landing for 4hours because it was bedtime and he hates bedtime.

I have physically removed him from shops for kicking off about not getting his own way, I've abandoned the trolley,put him under my arm like a farmer with a sheep and marched out.

It was 6months of battles, stand offs and stare downs but we got there. I never physically punished him never would, I just stood my ground like some stubborn off. He's given in now 🤣

I have a strong willed DS and sometimes the two choices doesn't work - he'll either do what your DS does or he'll stall making a decision. We tell him "OK, we're deciding for you, it's the brown trousers", put them out, walk off.

these are asd techniques but they still work with other children ( I have one of each and my NT child always responds even better to the asd suggestions than my child with ASD) - just to add to some of the other ideas above.
We use a lot of timers and alexa so in your case - 'alexa will make a fart noise in 5 minutes and that's when cuddle end and its time to get up' for some reason way more effective than me saying 'its time to get up'
and we use visual timetables which would work for bath night - its on the timetable as mum night, so it must be what happening

My DS knows I'm the boss, it doesn't stop him attempting to stage a coup

I'm noticing that you are asking him "why" he feels a certain way. Do you know that they can't answer that question at his age? He has no idea why. At the very best, he will parrot back what he heard an adult say was the reason for his behaviour. My 7yo is still not able to adequately answer the "why" question unless someone makes a suggestion to him first.

Don't give such a small child the job of interpreting his behaviour on your behalf. YOU are the one who interprets, not him, he's not old enough and it's giving him WAY too much power, how scary for him to know his mum doesn't know why he's acting as he does...

I would take the tack of accepting him as he is right now, and that he will learn and change in time. It sounds like he just hates transitions. Most people do, we just learn to hide it and cope with it better. That's what he will learn, if you let him.

So -
Choose what has to happen every day. Be mindful that you can't die on all the hills. E.g., does it matter that he favours Dad? Is this about your ego? To what extent to you need to relieve DH? Have that discussion as parents and set a reasonable goal, e.g., you'll bath DS twice a week so that Dad can have a break, and DS can learn a bit of flexibility.

Then be kind but firm. DS can scream his head off in the bath twice a week. You just sit there, letting him get on with it. If he screams too much, put in ear plugs. Narrate it all calmly. "I know DS, you want Daddy don't you. I understand. Anyway Daddy needs a rest, Mummy's in charge this evening. I know. I know. OK your screams are too loud, I'm plugging my ears." And sit. And let him perform. And when bathtime is done, move on calmly to the next activity of the evening. If he starts telling you he hates you, or asking why Daddy doesn't love him, etc. you can either ignore, or say very simply, "Everything is OK. Everyone here loves you. We are all trying our best, we're all tired but we'll get through this." That type of thing. No debate - just reassurance and then move on.

Don't allow yourself the luxury of getting visibly exasperated - that's about you letting off steam, not about giving DS space to learn how to cope with change. Just keep it kind, firm, quiet and brisk.

And don't get drawn into some kind of crazy discussion of "why" with a 4yo. He has no idea why. YOU have to work out why, and you may not even be able to share the "why" with him, he's not old enough for that. At this stage, he needs space to learn how to stay calm when things aren't optimal - and then several YEARS after that, he MIGHT figure out "why" he hates when things aren't optimal.

He'll only learn to find calm, by watching you being calm.

Honestly you just need to keep it very very simple, perhaps read up a bit on what children are learning emotionally at each stage of their lives, and just focus on giving them safe time and space to learn those things.

You can't "command respect" from a 4yo, unless you literally beat and abuse them. A child his age is trying to work out how the fuck he's to stay calm, in general. Once he's got that down, as long as you've not reacted as if it's a catastrophe, then he will treat you very gently and respectfully. But he's not there yet, and you asking him "why" or trying to negotiate or convince him is not going to help with that. You're going to panic him and cause him to spiral more and more into fuckery, it won't help anyone.

I agree very much with the PP. Pick your battles. Food, washing, sleep, not running in the road, being kind to other children...stand your ground. If you have to let them wear goggles in the bath when you wash their hair - eh, who cares?

Grow some balls people! Just wow.

Wow! What helpful tip, I wish I would have thought of that sooner!! Just show them who's boss and grow some balls. There you go, OP!

Somehow you are going to have to impose your will with rules

Quoting the OP: So - any tips?

My Ds was like this, he knew his own mind right from the start. To PP’s saying impose your will- It’s not in anyone’s interest to escalate this into a big shouting match if avoidable.
Can you maybe leave the curtains open and say, ok leave this but let’s have a race to get dressed, or get him a timer as the actual task you eventually want him to do is getting dressed? So that was youre removing the focus from the curtains and the sticking point, but creating some interest in another task?

Standard response to that ('ignore' or 'consequences') then quickly escalate shouting to a tantrum, which then take forever for him to calm down from.

Questions:
So if you don't respond, he starts shouting at you, is that right?
What are you doing to "calm him down" from a tantrum?

So - any tips? Frankly it makes me feel like a shit parent (not least the ongoing preference for DH/ rejection of me) -- I just want to say, you are not being a shit parent. You are parenting. Parenting just doesn't feel great when you have to teach them not to be sociopaths. It's really hard and unpleasant for a lot of the time - feeling shit doesn't mean you are actually doing a shit job.

and it's making the atmosphere at home in the mornings/ evenings horrible -- again, just to readjust your expectations - this is normal when a child is trying to learn how not to be a shitwit. It is REALLY hard, emotionally, not to lash out / lose your temper / burst into tears, when faced with a loved one who is being nasty to you.

I think it's a good idea to remember that the point of family life, when your kids are small, isn't to have a nice atmosphere at home. It's actually to train small people to have the emotional capability to one day be part of a nice atmosphere at home. When they are quite a bit older. Like. Thirty or so.

It's hard OP. You're not doing anything wrong - but I think you'll feel better if you "embrace the suck" (as the Americans say), lower your expectations, and reframe things a bit to remind yourself that your job is to model how to stay calm and how to cope with change. It's a long process that our parents' generation sometimes shortcut by using quite brutal physical and psychological punishment...

Just consider what it will be like in 10 years time if DC is like this....and grown up and be a parent.

@Phineyj I've actually just bought the most recent book by the 'Explosive Child' author and it arrived today. So hopefully some insight in there.

And honestly we're not pushovers and our DC have very clear boundaries, etc. DS would never run out in the road, etc. His teeth are brushed twice a day if he likes it or not. We have had countless fighty bath times where we insist he has a hair wash and we all (and the bathroom) end up soaking wet, for example. We have tried the battle of wills and it does not work (clearly) and it is horrible for everyone. I guess I could break him eventually, but it would be utterly miserable and I don't really want to break his spirit. He's at an age now where he needs to learn that cooperating and 'doing the right thing' is the way forward. Rather than blindly just doing what his 'superiors' tell him to.

I agree about choosing your hills. I don't really mind if DH baths him forever but DH finds it hard being all on him. And the curtains in the morning don't matter either. But if it's not that it's something else iyswim. So it's really about how we can help him learn that cooperation is better than being a pain. Without it ending in shouting and tears every single time.

Disclaimer, I don't think your DS is a shitwit. In case it isn't clear - I think ALL four year olds, including my own DC and myself at that age, are still learning things that they have to master before they become easy/pleasant to be around. It's hard living with a person who has not figured out how to adult yet.

But at the same time, of course we can't expect that they behave like anything but 4yos, because that's what they are. They are, scarily, actually trying their best, even when they are being really difficult and tiring.

@rvby oh no - he is a shitwit (at times). Your advice about staying calm is spot on. Totally guilty of showing my impatience. What makes me so sad is that DH used to be the most patient, uncross person until we had our 2nd child at which point shit got real and we both became much less 'calm' parents.

But I say to DH all the time that we have to model the behaviour we want to see in the DC, but I'm crap at doing it myself. I must work on that.

And good point about resetting our expectations. I think we just need to come up with a different way to tackle mornings in particular.

We've got one of these. Disagrees for the sake of disagreeing.

I drew a visual timetable for mornings - clothes and breakfast before tv and now I just hold it up silently pointing at the pictures. Bit sinister really but she can't argue if I'm not speaking!

And two options don't generally work here unless one of them is a threat - we have to wash your hair, are you going to lie down or shall I turn the shower on you? Which is exhausting and not very positive!

OP, I had this child. He's now 9 and an utter delight, but that combo of sensitivity, rejection of attempts to talk / explain and massive stubborn temper was exactly him at 4. Here's the things that helped me:

They have a testosterone surge at 4. This transformations their personalities until it settles down again, doing all the things that testosterone does and basically making them feel like they have PMS, all the time. They really need comfort and understanding more than stern discipline.

A parenting technique called PACE, which stands for errrrr playful, accepting, curious and empathy, I think. So:

DS: dont open the curtain!
OP: I bet I can open my side faster than you can open yours!

Or
OP: I wonder why opening the curtain is so horrid for you. Maybe it would be nicer tomorrow if you did it with me in a picky up cuddle, shall we try that?

Or (assuming the whole morning battle is actually because the family is about to part ways)

OP: I miss you when I'm at work, DS
Will you draw a heart on my arm so I can see it when I'm working and think about you? And shall I draw one on yours so you know I'm thinking about you at nursery?

And if he calls you stinky mummy and says he only wants DF: well at least you didnt call me Mummy Wobble Bottom (inset other silly name and take away the power of his rejection, which is showing him you're not rejecting him so doesnt need to keep getting in there first)

Good luck. You'll both get through it!

No experience of my own but some teacher tips. Definitely yes to a visual timetable - daily and weekly. Develop it with him. Get him to draw or choose pictures. Get him to choose a picture that represents him and use blue tack to stick it on where he is at at that time.

The Pom poms in the jar thing is great idea but you should never be taking them out. Make the rewards as immediate as possible (eg start off with “if you get 5 this morning, you’ll get a biscuit/hot chocolate/5 mins play with dad before school etc”) and then make them a bit longer if you feel you can. But really don’t go longer than a day for a reward.

It does seem to be a change in things that sets him off (getting out of your bed, opening the curtains) so hopefully more frequent if necessary warnings when things are going to change will help.

The curtain thing for example - just wait until he's out the room to open them. That seems like a battle not worth fighting tbh, go easy on yourself there and save the hard work for the important bits. Allow plenty of time, lots of time if he has trouble with transitions - don't leave stuff to the last minute, get up earlier, get as much stuff ready the night before as possible. No rushing or pressure.

I am not a fan of the idea of 'texting' friends, family or Santa either tbh, and this also goes for blaming any shop worker/police/that woman over there for telling a child to stop doing something. Don't turn the everyday into a blame game unless you want your child to model that as well.

Channel a cheery cBeebies presenter type manner! No shouting or tension, it's a vicious circle. Appear to Breeze along through the morning and curse in your car afterwards (if you don't have a dashcam that records sound...)

Good luck!