To not know how to handle battle of wills and tantrums with 4yo DS

[ButIDontWantto]

Party posting in here for traffic, but also because I think I am BU for not knowing how best to handle this. (I've also name changed)

DS (4.5) is mostly lovely, sweet, good natured, etc, but has always been, er, strong willed and prone to tantrums. He's quite straightforward, but also quite sensitive. Had epic meltdowns between about 18m & 2.5 about stuff like getting dressed. They seemed to have gone away, but the battle of wills and therefore tantrums have returned with a vengeance in the past few weeks. Possibly also relevant - he has a massive preference for DH (who is primary carer as I work FT, albeit from home a lot) and has been this way for ages (since about 18 months). He's not started school yet and no big changes or anything else going on at home. He's at nursery 4 days a week, where he is an angel (of course). We have an older DD (6), who he adores.

He has a couple of main triggers (around morning and bedtime routines) which basically come down to him wanting (or not wanting) things to be done a certain way (e.g. he currently only wants DH to bath him). Things can quickly escalate to DS shouting at us. Standard response to that ('ignore' or 'consequences') then quickly escalate shouting to a tantrum, which then take forever for him to calm down from.

I know it's about control. But the old 'give him two choices' trick has never, ever worked with him. Some of the stuff isn't an issue really (it's annoying for DH to have to bath him each night, but not a big deal really), but some of it is more obstructive (e.g. he comes into our bed for about 20 mins each morning, which is fine, but then kicks off when it's time to get up - obviously we can't give in to that as we have to get up to get everyone to school/ work/ nursery on time!).

So - any tips? Frankly it makes me feel like a shit parent (not least the ongoing preference for DH/ rejection of me) and it's making the atmosphere at home in the mornings/ evenings horrible :(

Yeah tbf, if I was at tantrum point of kicking off and someone hugged me against my will I'd probably try to chin them so I'd expect similar from my toddler

(it is a genuinely nice idea though, it just definitely wouldn't work in our house)

Place marking for tips! This is my 3.5 year old DS sometimes!

Flip your lid: (not life, soz)

Use your fist, clenched round your thumb to represent the brain.

The thumb is your reptilian brain - the bit responsible for fight/flight. It’s really important but needs to be in contact with the rest of your brain (represented by your fingers) in order to not go wild.
When you tantrum, you are “flipping your kid” (make fingers straight) and letting the reptilian brain be in charge - this means you aren’t thinking. So you need to get the thinking brain back. Often giving “thinking questions” that are achievable but require thought does this: name yellow animals/5 things beginning with f that sort of thing. This forces the thinking brain to be back in contact with the reptilian brain - curl your fingers back round your thumb, and stops the “lid flipping”.

The whole hand thing can really help children understand what is going on in their heads - and can be a useful shorthand for moments of extreme emotion. My son used to physically do the lid flipping/.hand curling back round to help me see where he was emotionally.

There’s lots of science behind it - happy to explain more if that’s all a bit jumbled....

I'm afraid I think you need to have a battle of wills. You are the parent, so parent. What you say goes at this age. He needs to know that if you say so it happens. For safety if nothing else. You can't hack down on this. It will be hellish but he will give in eventually and he will be safe and learn that he needs to respect authority.

Def watch those super nanny clips.

Oh not another 'you just have to be stronger willed' suggestion.

If the behaviour's coming from anxiety it just.doesn't.work.

You do not want to get into a stand off.

So what are your tips in situations that OP has described, if your advice is 'whatever you say, goes!'
It doesn't. OP's DC will just scream 'DON'T WANT TO' and things aren't going anywhere.

I've heard that tip before @SmileEachDay but my DS would just shout NO DON'T WANT TO or ignore you when he's in a rage, at least at the age we're talking about.

My dd2 was very much like your DS at that age. She grew out of it when she was about 17 🤣🤣
We had a very busy morning during the week, and she'd be cranky as hell. I made her a visual timetable with Velcro pictures that she could remove once she'd done a task. I completely left her to it. If she wasn't 'ready' for the childminder on time, I'd 'phone' the cm up and we'd have an imaginary conversation about what DD was missing by being late. It worked a treat!
We found that keeping conversation to a bare minimum helped. In fact she now tells us that when we tried to talk to her to calm her down, it just made her worse.
Pick your battles, don't sweat over trivial stuff. If he has a paddy when you're bathing him, so be it. Just get in with the task but don't talk to him. Maybe hum or put some music on to sing along to.

• rspouse

I've heard that tip before @SmileEachDay but my DS would just shout NO DON'T WANT TO or ignore you when he's in a rage, at least at the age we're talking about

It’s not something you would initially explain whilst he was emotional- more a conversation for when he’s calm, about how our brains work.

It’s something I’ve used at home and at school - for my feisty son and for children with severe SEMH challenges. Understanding how emotions are working and how to get the right bit of your brain in charge is how we regulate emotions - adults just do it without realising it’s happening.

In no way do you sound like a shit parent. It must be weary having to spend your time with DS locked in a battle of wills. I hope some of the ideas here work for you, or that DS randomly snaps out of it.

A distraction technique that worked with DD was to sing twinkle twinkle little star but get it wrong

Twinkle twinkle little shoe
How I wonder what you pineapple!

This would make DD giggle mid strop and then want to sing the song herself. Whilst distracted we could be slipping her coat on or putting socks on...etc.

The music tip's a good one. It gives you something to focus on that's calming. We've got an MP3 player for DD that I introduced about this age when bedtimes were very fraught. Or bung Classic FM on.

I had a thought about the getting in your bed. DD got in our bed often at that age. Turned out she just hated the toddler bed. We got her a full size single and it stopped.

OP I could have written your post. 3.5yr old DD is very much the same. Options work occasionally but usually it just becomes "I DON'T WANT ANY CLOTHES!" etc. Becoming more authoritarian/show them who is boss - how? Physically wrestle her into the clothes? In any case that would only result in her ripping them off again 2 minutes later. Endless time outs? We'd still be getting dressed at 6pm, she's that strong willed.

She also looks to pick a fight so that I'll have to tell her off, so in many ways it's counter intuitive because what she really wants is attention.

In our case it has all been exacerbated by the arrival of a new sibling, but this behaviour was there before that it's just become more often in the last few months.

Things that have sometimes helped:

1. Doing some appropriate set up - giving expectations before we start get up/bedtime routine and what the consequence will be when she's calm, as in if we get up without making a big fuss we'll have time for a story before we leave. I get her to repeat back to me what the expectation is and the consequence. If she then starts to kick off I can remind her, sometimes it heads the tantrum off at the pass. Basically saying "you will get the same amount of time with me and we can spend it doing fun stuff or brushing teeth".

2. Allowing tons of time. If I'm calmer it helps.

3. Heaping on the praise when it does go well. "We got up so fast today! I think we have time for 2 stories! That's great, I love reading with you"

But there are plenty of days when we do just have a shit morning/bed time. I try to remember "this too shall pass" and that I am trying to turn a sociopath into a decent human being, and that Rome wasn't built in a day.

That's a good tip PP. Rather than thinking, well this is shit, try to think: this year is better than last year (if it is, of course...) For instance, DD was frightful during a holiday abroad 2 years ago. I'm sure she'd cope better with it now.

Thanks for all the further responses.

After a much better day yesterday (DS didn't even come into our room in the morning because he was so keen to earn a marble for going downstairs without a fuss), today went not so well. Ended up with a horrible bedtime, the likes of which we haven't had for about 2 years. Over him refusing to go to the toilet, of all things. Turned into him shouting/ sobbing in his room (light was off by this point because I'd told him if he didn't go to the loo then straight to bed, lights out) for about 25 minutes before we eventually forced him onto the toilet. He refused to wee. DH sat with him for 10 minutes, with DS insisting he didn't need to wee. Then back to bed, at which point he admits he does need a wee. Finally asleep about 45 minutes later than usual.

Ugh. This is so shit. Honestly, it feels that even if we 'don't sweat the small stuff'/ 'pick our battles' there will always be a battle at some point because you always get to something that is non-negotiable. How could I have made him go to the loo tonight without it turning into a fight when he point blank refused, even as he was going upstairs, that he was going to go to the toilet?

I explained clearly to him at the beginning of bedtime that we could spend the 25 mins he had before lights out doing nice stuff (reading stories) or he could spend it fighting with us over going to the toilet. I tried the 'How to talk...' approach of 'DS you really don't want to go to the toilet, etc etc'. Makes no bloody difference. When he's digging in his heels there is no way to make him be rational. And forcing him to do it just ends up in tears and shouting and everyone having a completely shit time.

Maybe we should have just said 'ok, don't go to the loo if you don't want to'? Maybe we could have tried to find a way to be playful about it (but when I'm in the moment that just doesn't come naturally to me and I have to say that when I have tried that it doesn't really seem to work either. He still says 'no', even if he's laughing because we've turned it into a game or a silly thing - it doesn't make him any more likely to do the thing we want him to do that he doesn't).

Pass the wine, someone...

Why did you make him sit on the toilet for 10 minutes when he'd already said he didn't want to go?! He'd have gone when he had to, you made that into a battle when you didn't need to there. Does it really matter at what point in the 25 minute wind-down before bed exactly when he goes to the toilet. Wait until he asks to go!

Have a glass of wine tonight and start again tomorrow. But save battles for the important stuff.

I 100% agree with @CaramelCrunch approach - I also used to do the “we have this much time, we can spend it arguing about teeth or reading together”. And I also used to do the surprise extra thing when they had done a good job “yay, you got dressed so quickly that we have extra time, what would you like to do with it?”

Re the loo this evening - I would have just said “ok no worries” when he said he didn’t need to go. Sounds like he just wanted to go in his own time but then didn’t want to lose face by admitting he actually did need to go after all.

A battle of wills can only be a battle if there are two sides. What’s the worst that could happen if you just went “ok, just go when you need”? I mean, he’s 4, he’s presumably been taking himself off to the loo for a couple of years?

Even my 7 yo sometimes at bedtime, I’ll say “did you go to the loo?” And he’ll say “I don’t need to”, I say “okey doke” and then 5 minutes after lights out he takes himself off for a wee!

Were you worried he would fall asleep without having gone for a wee and then wet the bed? Both my DDs struggled (in different ways) with toilet training so I do understand the worry over that, especially at bedtime.

Ugh. I don't know. Because I knew he had to wee before going to bed. Because he'd already refused to do various other things. Because I'd said 'ok, I'll read you this story but you need to go for a wee before the next one or it's into bed and lights out' and he still reused. So I put him in bed and turned the light out and it went downhill from there.

But I suppose ultimately because I was done with parenting at this point of the evening and just wanted him to go to the loo so he could go to bed so that I could get on with having dinner/drinking wine/ not dealing with small people anymore.

But yeah, in hindsight it's obvious that an 'ok then' would have a) resulted in a nicer time for everyone and b) resulted in him going to the loo sooner anyway.

Seriously - you'd have thought after nearly 7 years of parenting I might have got the hang of it a bit better by now.

Bless you OP.

I'm a morning person. From 4pm onwards I become shitter at everything. I completely identify with losing a sense of proportion when bedtime hits a snag... my DS is the same as me, basically the wheels fall off both of us and it's our danger zone as a pair, it's when we are most likely to lose patience with each other...

Toileting is like eating, its something you encourage and prompt but never something you should force. Next time leave him to it. But, you already know that.

The number one thing to work on is to de-escalate/prevent escalation. This means pausing to ask yourself which hills should be died upon, and discipline yourself not to get drawn into battles, explanations, negotiations, etc. Be pleasant and calm, never show exasperation because he will.mirror you and begin to spiral into panic and tantrums.

"Ok DS, wee time"
"No!!!"
"Want to sing a song on the toilet with me while you try?"
"NO!!!"
"Ok ds. Bedtime then, off you go"
End scene. Nothing more to it.

It’s ok @ButIDontWantto it’s easy with hindsight to know what to do, but different when you’re in the thick of it.

Totally agree with just thinking “COME ON” and just wanting to clock off for the day.

Have you read about Pathological Demand Avoidance?
Some autistic children have this and the way you describe your son sounds like you could have more on your plate with him than you realised.
DSD has PDA and we only really understood this/ had a diagnosis when she was 10. Read about it on the bastions autistic society website and see if the description fits your DS.

National not bastions!

Sometimes when you are right in the thick of it, the most obvious solution passes you by - we've all been there! You escalated the toilet situation by trying to make him, but you see that so it's fine - you'll know for next time and you'll catch him by surprise when you take the wind out of his sails by refusing an argument

There are things we can't back down on, like running out into a road. But for the less important stuff, remember that you don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Defuse where possible (and ignore the invitation to the argument!)

Get all his clothes for tomorrow morning ready tonight, hanging where he can see them. Channel that children's TV presenter through gritted teeth if necessary and breeze through tomorrow morning! Hope it goes well for you all, I don't underestimate how stressful it must be for you all at the moment. It will pass, even if it doesn't seem like it will

I'm sure my particular DD has no additional needs. She's just a stubborn and strong willed.
Sometimes I also film her and ask her to agree on video, that if she does not do X, Y will happen. Often snaps her out of the strop. And if not, and Y will happen, I can show her video evidence that she agreed to it.