To not know how to handle battle of wills and tantrums with 4yo DS

[ButIDontWantto]

Party posting in here for traffic, but also because I think I am BU for not knowing how best to handle this. (I've also name changed)

DS (4.5) is mostly lovely, sweet, good natured, etc, but has always been, er, strong willed and prone to tantrums. He's quite straightforward, but also quite sensitive. Had epic meltdowns between about 18m & 2.5 about stuff like getting dressed. They seemed to have gone away, but the battle of wills and therefore tantrums have returned with a vengeance in the past few weeks. Possibly also relevant - he has a massive preference for DH (who is primary carer as I work FT, albeit from home a lot) and has been this way for ages (since about 18 months). He's not started school yet and no big changes or anything else going on at home. He's at nursery 4 days a week, where he is an angel (of course). We have an older DD (6), who he adores.

He has a couple of main triggers (around morning and bedtime routines) which basically come down to him wanting (or not wanting) things to be done a certain way (e.g. he currently only wants DH to bath him). Things can quickly escalate to DS shouting at us. Standard response to that ('ignore' or 'consequences') then quickly escalate shouting to a tantrum, which then take forever for him to calm down from.

I know it's about control. But the old 'give him two choices' trick has never, ever worked with him. Some of the stuff isn't an issue really (it's annoying for DH to have to bath him each night, but not a big deal really), but some of it is more obstructive (e.g. he comes into our bed for about 20 mins each morning, which is fine, but then kicks off when it's time to get up - obviously we can't give in to that as we have to get up to get everyone to school/ work/ nursery on time!).

So - any tips? Frankly it makes me feel like a shit parent (not least the ongoing preference for DH/ rejection of me) and it's making the atmosphere at home in the mornings/ evenings horrible :(

One of the trickiest things I've found about parenting is letting go of my own preconceptions about what should happen when. Accepting that my child has a will of their own and might not want to get dressed right this minute has been a learning curve to say the least, and my default seems to be to say 'no'. But when I examine things, a lot of the time there is no need to say no, it doesn't matter except in my own ideas of what should happen when. Your DS's toilet situation feels similar to me, you wanted him to go to the toilet simply because that's what hes supposed to do, and you dug in when he resisted, which escalated things. When you look at the situation, it probably would have been fine to just say, 'ok then, no toilet, you know where it is if you need it', and move on. Even if he did wet the bed, yes its unpleasant and a pain in the bum, but it's the natural consequence of his decision, and puts you in the position of being able to discuss with him why not going to the toilet before bed has led to that, supporting him in making better choices for himself.

I'm not trying to be critical, I really do understand that instinct to say 'no, you must do things this way' especially at the end of a long day when you just want to get this bit over with. But taking a step back and asking yourself what the consequences are for going along with what your child wants, and whether they really matter, or in fact could help him learn to make better choices in future, can help in deciding which battles to pick. I'm trying to change my default to saying yes more than I say no, which isn't easy but does help avoid some battles. Obviously there are times when you do have to insist, and there are some really helpful suggestions on this thread for when that's the case. I think I'm going to print this out and stash it somewhere!

yy @katmarie. This is a lot of it, I think. DH and I had a great conversation on Sat night about letting go a bit more and ways to help each other pick our battles when we're in the thick of it. It's definitely helped so far.

So - I'm interested to know how people would have done in this situation, which we had over the weekend... So, we're going out for day - meeting grandparents at pub for lunch, on the way to which we (just 4 of us) are stopping for a 45-min trip to the beach (bit of fresh air/ rock pooling). We all love this beach, fyi, and go often. Beach is a 30-min drive from home. Pub is 5 mins on from there. DS has been fine all morning, but about 5 mins before the beach he starts getting upset (about a toy he doesn't have with him - wants to turn around to get it, but obviously we can't at this point as we don't have time, so we continue on). By time we get to beach he's more upset/ kicking off and saying he doesn't want to go onto the beach, that he just wants to go home, etc etc. How would you handle that situation?

Oh and thanks for that suggestion @absopugginglutely. I spent some time reading up on PDA over the weekend and I didn't find the description matched my DS's behaviour. But useful to know that this exists as I hadn't heard of it before.

In that situation I would have gone to the beach anyway and if he was carrying on, I would have probably just said “it seems like you’re upset about going to the beach - we’re just stretching legs and getting some fresh air so if you don’t enjoy it, we won’t be here for long anyway”

Then if he was kicking off on the beach I would just start looking round the rock pools and ignoring any tantrums (not hard as I LOVE rockpools!) and hope that he got distracted by a crab or something. But I would pay no heed to the tantrum as the world does not revolve around him.

I think Ozgirl’s approach sounds sensible for the beach.

Interestingly I did the questionnaire for PDA for DD2 linked from the National Autistic Society. She scored 46. Apparently over 50 suggests PDA although they stress it is not diagnostic. Not sure it’s worth doing anything about as she is really well behaved at school. I have often thought about it over the years though and am going to try some strategies they suggest so thanks for this thread and for the suggestion absolugginglutely, as if put it back in my head.

Would you do that even if he was really kicking off @Ozgirl75? As in refusing to put on coat/ shoes? Screaming? Refusing to walk? To the extent that you had to carry him under your arm, etc?

Hmm in my case, I would tell DD calmly and cheerfully, that the rest of the family wants to go to the beach, and she come with us, or can sit and wait for us in the car. So far she has always come with us, if she sees we are really walking away.

If she said she will be in the car then, we would of course leave one parent somewhere hidden but keeping an eye on her. (I also have a 6-year old and I would not want him to skip the beach trip just because the younger sibling is kicking off).

That’s the very time I would do it the most! In that case they would be picked up, placed on the beach and ignored until they stopped screaming. Occasionally I might say “I can’t understand you when you’re screaming, talk to me in a normal voice and then I’ll know what you want” and then I’d chat with my husband/other child.

My eldest had some big tantrums but I would never give in to them because I was convinced this would mean that they saw tantrums as an effective strategy.

Oh and this will pass. I was sure that my child would have tantrums forever as he started at 2 and didn’t really totally finish until about 5/6 (although the worst were at 2-4) but I promise that now, although he is argumentative and fiery, he is totally reasonable and never screams and shouts (he’s 9 - this has been the case since he was at least 6/7)

Yes Ozgirl75 I know it will! He was pretty awful around 18months - 3 years but had been pretty much fine the last year or so. So I know he'll get through it again. The fact that it's wrapped up in other 'emotional' stuff for him (getting sad v. easily over things, feeling empathy strongly all of a sudden) is a sign to me that it's a phase to do with other developmental stuff that's going on.

I did get him to the beach, btw! But probably not in a very good way . I sat with him in the car for 5 or 10 mins, while DH and DD headed off, and gave him a cuddle and distracted him until he stopped sobbing about the toy. At which point I half guilted ('you're making me sad because I can't go on the beach and that's not fair') and bribed ('only people who go for a run around on the beach get ice-cream after lunch') him to leave the car. Could have done better. Probably should have just got him out the car straight away (although to be fair, the beach is down a set of v. steep steps from the carpark and it was very windy, so I didn't fancy my chances of getting a thrashing 4 year old down there safely). Or, even better, I think we might have been able to make it silly/ into a game (this worked well for DH this morning over something or other). But the loo tantrum was still fresh in my head, as was the 'must be nonchalant' mantra, until I realised that actually this was a battle I did want to pick and it was completely ridiculous that we were sitting in the car instead of having fun on the beach.

you're making me sad because I can't go on the beach and that's not fair'

I don't think that's a good idea at all. If he sees you escalating situations then he's going to learn to do the same.

Yeah, ok Chic. I did say I realised it wasn't the right way to go about it...

It's like his behaviour the last month or so has completely derailed my parenting instinct. Honestly, I'd be giving out the same advice that you all are. For some reason, in the moment I seem to keep on getting it wrong...

I've had the same with my DS, he's the same age.

Ours started around 4yo though. We used a little white board that I drew faces on (happy, sad, angry) and we spent ages (when he was calm and when he was kicking off) talking about feelings

I realise this sounds so wishy washy, but honestly the improvement was way beyond my expectations.

When he kicks off I get him to point at what he's feeling, and the things he's doing ie shouting, crying etc. Then I ask him to point to what he thinks I feel when he does that. It seems to really have made him think about it. Sometimes he gets the board on his own and says "mummy you made me feel this" and we just talk about it.

We've had long chats about the fact that it's okay to be sad or angry, and we can say that's how we feel. But what we can't do is scream, shout and have trantrums

Regarding the beach situation. There is absolutely no way in HELL I would plan to visit anywhere for 45 mins before going on to another activity. Not even with my 7yo!

For a kid who struggles with transitions, 45 mins isn't enough time for him to relax and enjoy himself. You've basically taken him somewhere, which has stressed him, only to take him somewhere else again, to stress him even more. What a hellish day for him.

Choose one "thing" a day - one activity, one setting. So, either beach for hours, with a picnic in-situ, or, a lunch out. That's it. Then home again.

Children's lives are meant to be simple. Your son is really young yet. Don't plan multiple "things" for a day, don't drag him through things that he can't cope with yet. It just causes pain for everyone.

What's stopping you from simplifying this kid's life, and your expectations of family life in general? You do seem to have specific expectations and to be very motivated to ensure your child meets them, no matter how much you all suffer for it. What can you do to pare down your expectations and give DS some time to figure things out?

There is no way I could just drive my DC to a pub, expect them to sit there for a few hours, and then drive them home @rvby. They would go absolutely bonkers without some sort of runaround. Stopping off at this beach is akin to going to a playground or park on the way somewhere for us. We go there all the time. I don't think it was expecting too much of him at all. Not least because we've had similar days (and busier) many, many times with no issues. In other words, if it hadn't been getting out the car at the beach it would have been something else...

And the only thing I'm motivated about is finding a better way to handle DS so that we avoid life being miserable for everyone. It's not like I'm trying to take him backpacking around the world at age 4!

ButIDontWantto

I would look into some of the brain stuff i mentioned up thread OP - he sounds like his emotional regulation is going through big shifts, so giving him some reasons for that and encouraging him to tell you what’s happening might really help.

My boy uses the language of “flipping your lid” all the time - more often not to describe younger children’s behaviour. He still does the little hand action though which is properly cute.

But then you don't take them to the pub? You only take them to the beach, or playground, or whatever. Relatives can come to you. Not forever- just for a spell.

Yes, maybe the "burning off energy before the pub" thing worked before, but surely your son is showing you clearly that he can't cope with that at the minute and you need to simplify for a bit? Children change, he may be going through a developmental stage that's make transitions much more difficult than they once were.

My best friends dd used to be able to do playground then restaurant. Suddenly at age 5 she just couldn't. Now at age 9 shes fine with it again.

It is possible for you to simplify his life until he learns to cope better. It's not forever, I would definitely teach him about "flipping his lid" and make him conscious of his responses - practice that for a few months while radically simplifying - and then build VERY slowly back into a more normal cadence of transitions.

Good advice but in the meantime your DPs might get rather pissed off with you and maybe OP needs them on side.

I wouldn't be prioritising DC in that way over maintaining a relationship with the older generation.

The obvious solution would have been to get up earlier and spend longer on the beach?

Just to add my experience here, my dd wouldn't have coped with the beach for 45 mins followed by the pub, she would have found it too stimulating. My second dd would have been fine. So i think it's something to bear in mind when you're planning your day. I also agree with getting them out every day for a runaround, so I'm not sure what the solution would be in this case. Maybe head to the beach earlier for the runaround, then some quiet time sitting in the car colouring or reading a story, then the pub?

Also with the temper tantrum i think leaving them in the car to stremp alone (while you keep an eye) can work well, but not as a punishment, i.e. the child should not feel abandoned, so as soon as they've calmed down, i think you should reappear and offer them the chance to join in. Again my first dd would have panicked so much if I'd tried to leave her, whereas my second needed time alone to calm herself down.
So i suppose whet I'm saying is that one size does not fit all situations, and you may need to try out a few ideas before hitting on the one that works.

It would be easier on everyone to take him to a pub with a play park/frame whacky warehouse type thing attached then. Keep it simple.

It does sound as if he has a degree of demand avoidance - not all PDA presents the same way. As I understand it, the technique for that is to try to let the child think that they've made the choice you want - which isn't easy but is better than a full-on confrontation or tantrum.

I think in the beach situation I would have just sat in the car with him, let DH & DD spend time on the beach - or even better, DH does the 'punishment' and you go on the beach with DD and get the one-on-one time.
If he then can't handle sitting behaving nicely in the pub for lunch, you leave. There will be other beach times, and other lunches. Choose the course of action that reduces stress, tries to avoid meltdowns but also instils that poor behaviour means he doesn't get to do fun stuff.
You'll have to explain to DD and make it up to her, but that's the route I would take.
Plus, don't bath every night. Give DH some evenings off. This could incur a risk that DS then starts refusing baths, or it could mean he becomes better behaved at bedtime as he wants bathtime with DH.
Sympathies though. It sounds rough.

Wow this thread is a lot like my DS sometimes, he's just turned 4. I've actually been worried this weekend that he has PDA but he seems to be more pliable than a lot of the DC mentioned on here so I think he's just stubborn!

Some great tips though. I love the How to talk book, it's definitely changed how I handle DS and a lot of the strategies work on him.