AIBU to think these Welsh language requirements are ridiculous (and bordering on discrimination?)

[DimDimDiolch]

Context: I run a micro business in urban South Wales, where I rarely hear Welsh spoken, and many Welsh born-and-bred people don't speak a word of Welsh. I lived my whole life in England (no Welsh lessons at school - or anywhere else!) until about 18 months ago. I've picked up the odd bit of Welsh here and there (diolch, dim, croeso, nos da, bara, araf - that sort of thing) but I'm far from fluent. My business isn't yet big enough to employ anyone else.

My business is the sort of business where you attend events, pay for a pitch and sell products to the general public.

I've now been denied pitches at a couple of events purely on the grounds that I don't speak Welsh, even though literally everyone locally speaks English (except those who only speak Polish or Urdu...). AIBU to think it's a matter of anti-English sentiment, bordering on discrimination, that I'm experiencing? It all feels a bit 'jobs for the boys' to me, when my Welsh speaking ability has nothing to do with the products I sell.

Op, you said if anyone could find you free help you would take it. That's what the Cardiff Welsh for Business officer, whose details I have provided, can do.

I also said, if you have any money in the future, the lessons are £90 for the year. That's good value, I didn't assume you must have the money.

I don't think you should be forced to learn Welsh. I think you're an entrepreneur and learning Welsh would be a useful skill for you and your business.

If I knew many Welsh people who actually spoke Welsh, it would be different. I have a friend who was born, bred and has always lived in Wales, but had no idea what Nadolig Llawen meant.

I find this impossible to believe.

So did I, until it emerged in conversation. Having tested each other, it turned out I had managed to pick up more Welsh in 18 months with no formal lessons than he had in 30 years with formal lessons.

If you pay before the course begins they're £72, for 9 month's worth of lessons. You can also pay in instalments or get a discount if you're on a low income. It sounds like you're just not interested.

Also, you're yet to say what this event is?

I have a friend who was born, bred and has always lived in Wales, but had no idea what Nadolig Llawen meant.

Education is wasted on some people. Not sure what that's supposed to prove 🤷‍♀️

Many Welsh people in their thirties and older were never taught Welsh in school

People in their 30s were taught welsh in school. It was compulsory.

@leghairdontcare Thanks, I've bookmarked it and I'll give it a go if I don't get on with Duolingo

Some English people seem very quick to shout about discrimination in Wales. I had a fairly abusive phonecall off someone who failed to get a job where I work and was claiming we'd discriminated against her because she was English. At the time 4 out of 10 employees were English. She was interviewed by an English person with a clearly English regional accent fgs.

@karencantobe neither do people in Wales! This is obviously a particular requirement of this event (which OP is dodging naming). OP is then claiming discrimination, which it is not.
The majority of businesses advertise in English where I live. We get leaflets through the door for dog walkers, window cleaners, dressmakers, accountants, etc, all sorts. We also have markets/Christmas fairs, etc that are all in English. However, there are certain companies/organisations that are required to use bilingual written info. If OP wants to be part of this then she needs to meet the criteria. Seriously, why is this so difficult to understand?!

It's for something like the Eisteddfod than YABVU, it's for something like a local craft market or a wedding fair the organisers are BU. However, I'm very doubtful it will be the latter case.

*If I knew many Welsh people who actually spoke Welsh, it would be different. I have a friend who was born, bred and has always lived in Wales, but had no idea what Nadolig Llawen meant.

I find this impossible to believe.*

I believe this 100%. My in laws are all Welsh and can’t speak Welsh, several generations. They live not too far from Cardiff in a very popular town/village.
A lot of my friends have Welsh in laws in South Wales that don't speak the language.

@Ohtherewearethenn It is not difficult to understand. But others are saying if you go abroad of course leaflets should be in the local language. Or if you don't want to speak the local language, go home. Your are a sane voice, not everyone is.

I live in a very Welsh speaking area in North West Wales.The only event i can think you would be denied a pitch at is the Eisteddfod. A market trader i spoke to sells very unique items made from slate. He was denied a pitch there as he didn't speak Welsh.

@karencantobe sorry, I wasn't just aiming my frustration at you, if was more to the OP and others who don't understand that in order to pitch her business at this event she has to meet certain criteria, in this case just including, not exclusively using, the language of the country she wants to launch her business in

I’m Cardiff born and bred and first language Welsh speaker, second generation (parents moved from West Wales). The numbers of Welsh speakers in Cardiff are growing, not just people like me but my contemporaries who now have Welsh speaking children and grandchildren, and those who have moved here for work from north and west Wales.

No one forced them?
Please educate yourself.

I didnt say no one forced them. I said if anyone forced them, it was Welsh teachers, not legislation in London.
I still haven't found any legislation BTW

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treachery_of_the_Blue_Books

also Google the Welsh Not and Capel Celyn.

Still no legislation being forced on Wales in regard forcing or banning language in schools

Welsh children have been beaten in schools for speaking Welsh, whole communities have been forced from their homes due to the government in London in the TWENTIETH Century (not even the 19th!!!).

So provide the specific education acts? As far as I can see at thr moment, there arent any.
If children were beaten in schools, it was Welsh teachers doing it.
English communities were forced from their homes or evicted in the 20th century. It wasnt something exclusive to Wales, or Scotland and Ireland for that matter

The Welsh culture is fighting to survive and doing well.

I'm glad it's doing well. It's great that the language is still spoken in parts of Wales, but earlier in the thread England was being blamed for Welsh education failures in 19th and 20th century. When schools in Wales were run by Weslh people and always have been.

I live in just about the Welshest area in Welsh Wales. The English are welcome, to holiday here, and to move here, with the right attitude. Learn some Welsh, be aware of the history and just be a bit respectful FGS.

Likewise

I have a friend who was born, bred and has always lived in Wales, but had no idea what Nadolig Llawen meant

Are you sure they weren't winding you up? You pick up certain words because it's everywhere (which is precisely the point of all the signs being bilingual). If you've lived there all your life you can't miss stuff like that! And you have to learn it at school.

It would be like going to Germany and not noticing Frohe Weihnachten everywhere at Christmas. Or God Jul in Norway. I don't believe it.

I’m pretty sure most people in Wales know what Iechyd Da means!

I think YABU, everyone has to learn Welsh at school now, my friends children are teaching my friend as she didn't learn at school either.
If the language isn't preserved it might as well just become England. My business will include work in Wales, there will be places I can't work as don't speak Welsh.

In my experience, ability to speak Welsh is included in person specs but no one cares about it

If it's a public sector job, and it's in the spec as essential (rather than desirable), they can't interview you if you don't have it. At least that is what I was told when I was a school governor and had training on recruiting a headteacher (or any member of staff). Not specifically Welsh, as I don't live in Wales, but if you put something as essential then the person had to evidence that in their application.

So if a job role in Wales says you have to have Welsh or be willing to learn, they mean it.

Private sector can do what they like as long as they don't discriminate on the protected characteristics.

And all the professional level public sector jobs I see advertised in Wales say some knowledge of Welsh is required.

My cousin and siblings hail from Cardiff. They are 60, 70 and 74 . None are welsh speakers. They were educated at a time when speaking welsh was optional.
Such a shame.
The only time I hear welsh spoken in Cardiff is somewhere like st fagans
I think it’s awful you cannot sell your goods

And all the professional level public sector jobs I see advertised in Wales say some knowledge of Welsh is required.

But it might be courtesy level as I detailed upthread, and which isn’t really a big ask, rather than any degree of fluency.

No-one is saying she should go back to England

That isn't true though, is it? A PP wrote exactly those words, but MN have rightly deleted it and other similarly bigoted posts

Like so many, I respect the wish to preserve a language and culture and love that kids are given this opportunity in school, but it's the coercion which confuses me. Language naturally evolves over time (which is why we rarely hear Occitan in Provence, Norse in Scandinavia, etc) but isn't this a matter best left to the individual rather than a cause for nationalistic breast beating?

I’d be very surprised if any of my cousins know what nadolig llawen meant
I can’t even get my cousin to tell me how to pronounce welsh names properly.
Their mum was English and their dad welsh but a non welsh speaker.
I’m pleased to hear that welsh speakers in Cardiff are growing
Love to go there.
My next trip will be April hopefully

The Laws in Wales Act 1535 decreed that English was to be the only language used in Welsh courts and that monoglot Welsh speakers were barred from holding public office

This is the 16th century. When courts used English and Latin . The idea that just because someone spoke English and Latin meant that the common English man had an advantage isnt true

The stated aim of the act was to prevent : “the people … using a speech nothing like the natural mother tongue (English) within this Realm … and to extinguish the sinister traditions and customs differing from the laws of this Realm (England)

Which could he said about many parts if England at the time.

The first British Law enacted in Ireland which specifically banned the use of the Irish language was Article III of The Statute of Kilkenny from 1367 which made it illegal for English colonists in Ireland to speak the Irish language and for the native Irish to speak their language when interacting with them. This was followed in 1537 with The Statute of Ireland – An Act for the English Order Habit and Language that prohibited the use of the Irish language in the Irish Parliament. In 1541, further legislation was passed which banned the use of Irish in the areas of Ireland then under English rule. The Administration of Justice (Language) Act (Ireland) was passed by the Irish Parliament in 1737. The Act not only forbids the speaking of Irish within the courtroom, it also prohibits the completion of legal documentation in Irish and imposes a financial penalty of £20 each time Irish is spoken in court in contravention of the law.

Now we are even further back in time. When Latin was the language of the courts and the ruling elite and when a French heritage ruling class were in power .
Do the people of Yorkshire complain that at some point in ancient history they were banned from speaking Danish?

The other dates im guessing relate to suppressing rebellions and secret oaths and were probably temporary. Secret oaths and rebellions were also crushed in England under similar measures. Penal laws were not just applied in Ireland

A report of the Secretary of State in 1871 sums up the prevailing view of the period: “The Gaelic language … decidedly stands in the way of the civilization of the natives making use of it”. In 1872 Scotland moved for the first time to a compulsory, state-directed, and state-funded system of education covering the entire country. Even then no provision of any kind was made for Gaelic.

But still no legislation on banning or forcing language in schools.
Scotland had it's own law system, separate from Englnad, and had done for some time

For similar for Scots, see Education (Scotland) Act 1872. It's only since we got our own government that the use of Scots in education has been allowed.

Some people on this thread are incredibly ignorant of their own history.

As I said above. Scotland had it's own law system and always has.
And you call me ignorant

My guess is that this event is either Tafwyl, the Urdd Eisteddfod or the National Eisteddfod. These events are heavily funded to promote the Welsh language, and it is a requirement that signs/menus/price lists etc are bilingual. I have taken my business to some of these events and attended as a member of the public. The main language heard and spoken is Welsh but it's not exclusive.

It would be fairly easy for you to learn enough Welsh to serve customers at an event. If they then go off on a tangent you'd just have to explain that you don't understand and that you're learning Welsh. People would respect this and be very encouraging towards you and your business - you may even find that you want to keep learning the language in order to grow this side of your business

I live around 75% of my life through the medium of Welsh, it is very much my first language. My children are educated at our local Welsh medium secondary school and I'm sure they will be successful in whatever career they follow. A journalist once highlighted a Welshman's success (I think it was Dr Jamie Roberts - medical Dr and ex Welsh international rugby player) using the phrase 'despite being taught in Welsh'. This caused huge uproar as many successful Welsh attribute their success 'because they were taught in Welsh'.