AIBU to think these Welsh language requirements are ridiculous (and bordering on discrimination?)

[DimDimDiolch]

Context: I run a micro business in urban South Wales, where I rarely hear Welsh spoken, and many Welsh born-and-bred people don't speak a word of Welsh. I lived my whole life in England (no Welsh lessons at school - or anywhere else!) until about 18 months ago. I've picked up the odd bit of Welsh here and there (diolch, dim, croeso, nos da, bara, araf - that sort of thing) but I'm far from fluent. My business isn't yet big enough to employ anyone else.

My business is the sort of business where you attend events, pay for a pitch and sell products to the general public.

I've now been denied pitches at a couple of events purely on the grounds that I don't speak Welsh, even though literally everyone locally speaks English (except those who only speak Polish or Urdu...). AIBU to think it's a matter of anti-English sentiment, bordering on discrimination, that I'm experiencing? It all feels a bit 'jobs for the boys' to me, when my Welsh speaking ability has nothing to do with the products I sell.

...However I'd be astonished if you can't find a subsidised welsh course in Cardiff. I think a bit of learning will go a long way.

Would anyone fancy joining me for a chat?

Welsh chat thread? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3807635-welsh-chat-thread

Everyone knows someone who encountered a Welsh person switching to Welsh in a shop once they were aware of an English persons presence it seems 😂 Luckily when we went on holiday to north Wales we didn’t come across such people. I think they’re along the lines of dragons for being mythical

Admittedly we were in a tourist/seaside area but we didn’t hear a lot of Welsh full stop. We did in one cafe but the staff spoke English to us. We did ask them to teach us a few words of Welsh, my seven year old loved it. Ok, so we only got hello, which sounds the same 😂, hwyl, diolch and I’ve forgotten what please was 🤦🏻‍♀️ but if my seven year can make the effort, I think I would if I was living there and wanted to sell stuff.

Are there areas where people speak only Welsh at all?

She was at Bangor uni, I was at Cardiff

I don't know how true or universal an experience it is, but I've been told by a couple of Welsh speakers that, because of the differences in vocabulary and the very differing accents, they've been unable to understand other Welsh speakers from the other end of the country and have had to resort to using English

Agree with Waffles80.

The expectation that you can move away from England and still keep on doing everything exactly as if you were still there, including the expectation that you will be able to remain monolingual, is a peculiar conceit.

Lol @ 'free local lessons'.

You can do it online for free and get lots of exposure by watching Welsh language tv and listening to Welsh radio.

Everyone knows someone who encountered a Welsh person switching to Welsh in a shop once they were aware of an English persons presence it seems

I can sooort of understand that some people might do that, if they want to speak without somebody else hearing (not necessarily about them) - and why would you bother whispering if you can just change language.

However, the legends always suggest that it happens the instant a non-Welsh speaker enters a shop, pub etc.
Firstly, how do they know what language the people were speaking before they went in?
Secondly, as has been said, they might have heard a few words that sound similar and assumed they were using them in an English context - or they may have been drawing from their combined linguistic abilities (say they were talking about something like social media, where there may not be many established Welsh terms yet; I've also heard some switching briefly to English to give postcodes or phone numbers).
Thirdly, they have no way of knowing that, just because an entering person is using English, none of their party speaks Welsh as well). They might assume if the person has a strong SE English or Scottish accent, but they might have moved there a long time ago and learned the language.
Fourthly, the elephant in the room: the average English person doesn't actually look distinctly different the average Welsh person anyway - so how could they possibly identify you from a glimpse of your face?!

Additionally, for all you know, that might be their diplomatic way of signalling to Welsh-speaking customers as they arrive that they can freely use their own first language if they prefer, without having to make any awkward assumptions or probes as to whether the assistants are bilingual, knowing that this won't be an issue for monolingual English speakers, who will just address them in English regardless.

I was in Wales for three years in university and did take some lessons - this thread is really making me want to pick it up again and become far better at it (maybe even fluent eventually)!

You're pissed off that Menter Caerdydd, an organisation specifically created to encourage use of the Welsh language, want you to offer a Welsh language option if you're touting business with them. There are so many options for you to sell stuff in spaces not reserved for Welsh language promotion!

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll come and join us on the welsh chat thread! Auda and others are being very kind to our baby steps welsh.

What about the Welsh speakers who are spending their money at these events? They go there because it's a rare opportunity in this city where you claim not a single person speaks Welsh to be fully immersed in their own language and culture, without having to repeat what they've just said in English because the person trying to get them to give them actual money can't speak Welsh. If I went to a Menter Caerdydd event, I'd have to say I'd be disappointed if I had to speak English. A lot of their events are an opportunity for learners who attend their classes to practice their newfound language skills without being too self-conscious. How deflating to build yourself up to say something in Welsh and be told the person on the other side of the stall doesn't speak Welsh.

Can't you find at least a teenager who could work for you for a few hours on the stall? I'm sure the organisers would be more than happy to help.

I haven't rtft and haven't got time right now. I was born and have lived in Wales nearly all my life. Welsh language education when I was in school was abysmal and I had to drop it at 14 if I wanted to take music However I'm at a disadvantage when applying forany local jobs, and in fact I'd argue that those who are offered positions on the basis of speaking Welsh are often not the best person for the job.

It is discriminatory. I work over the border and my DCs will probably do likewise.

what is really depressing is that speaking Welsh in Wales is so often seen as rude, aggressive and exclusionary
I agree, but it's surely not a case of one being more so than the other; for me, all hateful attitudes are depressing - espeially when there's just no need for them
You really aren’t getting it, @Puzzledandpissedoff speaking Welsh in Wales is not in any way rude, aggressive or exclusionary. What is rude is seeing Welsh speaking as being one of those things. As the post you quoted quite clearly says.
It is not discriminatory to ask for language ability where it is needed. Anyone who wants the jobs can learn. I know people from Syria, Poland, loads of places, who have learned Welsh.

speaking Welsh in Wales is not in any way rude, aggressive or exclusionary

I realise that, cardibach; in fact it's why I wrote "I agree" that it's depressing if it's seen as such

This thread reminds me of the Tebot Piws song MOMFfG - if my IT skills weren’t so dire I would attempt to link to the song on YouTube

I've been told by a couple of Welsh speakers that, because of the differences in vocabulary and the very differing accents, they've been unable to understand other Welsh speakers from the other end of the country

Indeed. One of the reasons I didn't carry on with my Welsh course was because after the first term the south Walian teacher left and was replaced by a North Walian (or vice versa, not sure which now) and we effectively had to start again in some respects. But you saying that confirms what I was thinking when I was in North Wales last year and I thought some of the signs were subtly (or maybe not so subtly) different from what I was used to in South Wales.

This has made me want to learn it again, too. I'll look out Duolingo. Futurelean should do a course, they have quite an extensive Irish course.

@cardibach There is less motivation for people to become fluent in Welsh though, than just to live elsewhere. It must affect recruitment.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

I've been told by a couple of Welsh speakers that, because of the differences in vocabulary and the very differing accents, they've been unable to understand other Welsh speakers from the other end of the country and have had to resort to using English

There is some truth to this but not much. It's no different to a Cornishman and a Geordie trying to have a conversation in their own dialects - they would both have to moderate their language towards the Queen's English to find common terms. Not difficult for them to deal with, but tricky for a learner who is only learning Geordie English.

I can't believe that two Welsh speakers have had to end up speaking English, but I can believe that having such contrasting words for the same thing will have caused moments of confusion.

I switch from Welsh to English when I know an English person is around, to be polite There are tonnes of Welsh speakers. There are 17 Welsh-language primaries (Large ones, my nice goes to a 3-form entry Welsh school, there are at least 600 kids) and three larger Welsh medium secondary schools.

Sorry OP, your post demonstrates entitlement and ignorance. Well i ti ddysgu siarad Cymraeg.

^these are the schools in Cardiff alone, by the way

We visit Wales quite a lot. I've learned some conversational Welsh (need to learn more), asking for things in shops / restaurants. I've never encountered anybody suddenly switching to Welsh - quite the opposite. In a bar on Anglesey the barman asked other customers to switch to English. We (how do I say this without sounding 'magnanimous') asked them to carry on speaking Welsh because we were in Wales. We wouldn't expect everyone in France to switch to English so why should Wales be any different just because it's joined on?

guavaf

There is less motivation for people to become fluent in Welsh though, than just to live elsewhere. It must affect recruitment

It does affect recruitment, karen. As explained upthread this has been my field, and a firm requirement for proficiency in Welsh will obviously mean a smaller candidate pool than would otherwise be the case

To be clear this is absolutely an employer's choice to make, but choices have consequences and these can sometimes be unfortunate

I’m astonished you don’t hear Welsh being spoken in Cardiff, I hear it daily.

I’m not Welsh speaking myself (taking lessons) however my child is being educated at a Welsh medium school and will grow up to be fluent. I think it is important to protect the language and culture of Wales.

To the poster below who spoke welsh in Germany to confuse people; my brother and I did that on a ski lift in Austria. One of the Austrians in the gondola turned to us and said “ah, you are from Wales, ja?” We were mortified.

I don’t speak much welsh at all but when I managed to roll a hire car in a ditch in Guadeloupe the only words that came out of my mouth were Welsh, much to the confusion of the men who came to help.