AIBU to think these Welsh language requirements are ridiculous (and bordering on discrimination?)

[DimDimDiolch]

Context: I run a micro business in urban South Wales, where I rarely hear Welsh spoken, and many Welsh born-and-bred people don't speak a word of Welsh. I lived my whole life in England (no Welsh lessons at school - or anywhere else!) until about 18 months ago. I've picked up the odd bit of Welsh here and there (diolch, dim, croeso, nos da, bara, araf - that sort of thing) but I'm far from fluent. My business isn't yet big enough to employ anyone else.

My business is the sort of business where you attend events, pay for a pitch and sell products to the general public.

I've now been denied pitches at a couple of events purely on the grounds that I don't speak Welsh, even though literally everyone locally speaks English (except those who only speak Polish or Urdu...). AIBU to think it's a matter of anti-English sentiment, bordering on discrimination, that I'm experiencing? It all feels a bit 'jobs for the boys' to me, when my Welsh speaking ability has nothing to do with the products I sell.

@karencantobe, a class issue? I am as working class as it gets as are id say 80% of the other welsh speakers I know (And that’s hundreds of people). I’d be interested to know what he does as a job.

oh. My DH is English. He has worked as an academic in Wales for 40 years.

Well, I can tell you I know dozens of senior academics in wales who aren’t welsh speaking. Many of them aren’t even british. I’m dubious about his claim.

I just don’t believe this is true. Welsh learner, not speaker. And in the south. Get your posters translated but that’s it. I’ve never encountered spoken welsh being compulsory except for certain government roles. God I cover teaching for welsh speakers now and again in uni and if the welsh speaker is off they get me with sut mae and diolch and every one is lovely about it.

I'm Welsh and live in Wales and apart from knowing a few words it hasn't affected my employment. The area and job I work in I would be better off learning basic Bengali, Arabic and Mandarin. No one has ever asked me if I "Siarad Cymraeg?"

My 9 year old niece has a school lesson once a week learning Mandarin.

Unless the OP is applying to Urdd events I don't believe this for one second.

Or if it's at the Museum of Welsh Life in St Fagans.

I'm English but we moved to SE wales when I was 4. We only did VERY basic welsh at school. I can count to 5 & sing the National anthem. Hello & goodbye & the odd word.

Obligatory GCSE Welsh came in the year after my younger DB's school year.

I returned to England at 19 & have never returned to Wales. I know school friends now educate their children at welsh speaking schools & told me that when they grow up it will be essential to have Welsh as a language.

I do often wonder if there had been such a focus on welsh in the early 80s if my parents (from London) would have moved to wales at all?

Broadly what I'm saying is I believe it's a great thing for the welsh that they have successfully managed to grow their language & made it so important. On the other hand not everyone is up for learning languages, will it put people off moving to Wales?

As a Welsh person , I cant speak the language so does that make me a lesser person?
A lesser person is a deliberately charged term, but it is a bit weird to me. I learned my native language properly as an adult (did not have an opportunity to be schooled in it, due to the language cleansing during the colonial times). With a tutor and wotkbooks, in my own time and at my own expense. My parents are learning it now in their 60s - they had even less exposure to it than me and they don't need it for the daily life, just out of respect.
I think it is a shame when minor languages die out. Or species. Even if they don't serve any practical purpose and are purely ornamental.

Cardiff?!

This is bullshit surely? Especially in Cardiff where (if I remember correctly from my Welsh Language Awareness training in work) only 9% of people speak Welsh. Unless it is welsh language events - no idea if they do stipulate this but it would be perfectly reasonable if they did.

As for all these people who can't get jobs because they don't speak Welsh...have any of them actually applied for any of these jobs and been told in their feedback that they were unsuccessful because they can't speak Welsh? In my experience, ability to speak Welsh is included in person specs but no one cares about it... (obviously there are some jobs where it would be essential, and I'll add that I've only worked in swansea and Cardiff).

Also calling bullshit on not being able to get a job in academia. There are huge numbers of people in academia who aren't even British. Do you really think welsh universities are just full of welsh staff?

I do have knowledge of Wales, I went to uni in North Wales and remained for 10 years and lived in Cardiff for 18! The percentage of people speaking the language should not be the issue here.
The issue is respect for the country and heritage you choose to join by moving there. The issue is protecting a language. The issue is crying 'discrimination' because you don't see the value in a country's culture (no matter how diluted) enough to make an effort to learn enough of the language to get by (even when it benefits your own business).
The issue is that Wales is a country in its own right. Welsh is legally protected. As much as most of the world believe Wales to be a subset of England, it is not. Yet when the policies are put in place to protect the language and the county's status they are deemed as being unreasonable.
But then why should the Welsh care about the erosion of their rights? After all only 19% actually speak Welsh (due to past pressures and discrimination) so it doesn't really matter does it? Until it's gone that is!

@Waffles80 I agree with everything in your post. I was going to say similar but you’ve worded it much better than I could have.

If Welsh teachers in the 19th century forced school children in Wales to speak English then that was their own fault. I very much doubt they were ordered to do it by the government in London

The Laws in Wales Act 1535 decreed that English was to be the only language used in Welsh courts and that monoglot Welsh speakers were barred from holding public office. The stated aim of the act was to prevent : “the people … using a speech nothing like the natural mother tongue (English) within this Realm … and to extinguish the sinister traditions and customs differing from the laws of this Realm (England)

The first British Law enacted in Ireland which specifically banned the use of the Irish language was Article III of The Statute of Kilkenny from 1367 which made it illegal for English colonists in Ireland to speak the Irish language and for the native Irish to speak their language when interacting with them. This was followed in 1537 with The Statute of Ireland – An Act for the English Order Habit and Language that prohibited the use of the Irish language in the Irish Parliament. In 1541, further legislation was passed which banned the use of Irish in the areas of Ireland then under English rule. The Administration of Justice (Language) Act (Ireland) was passed by the Irish Parliament in 1737. The Act not only forbids the speaking of Irish within the courtroom, it also prohibits the completion of legal documentation in Irish and imposes a financial penalty of £20 each time Irish is spoken in court in contravention of the law.

A report of the Secretary of State in 1871 sums up the prevailing view of the period: “The Gaelic language … decidedly stands in the way of the civilization of the natives making use of it”. In 1872 Scotland moved for the first time to a compulsory, state-directed, and state-funded system of education covering the entire country. Even then no provision of any kind was made for Gaelic.

For similar for Scots, see Education (Scotland) Act 1872. It's only since we got our own government that the use of Scots in education has been allowed.

Some people on this thread are incredibly ignorant of their own history.

I'm absolutely stunned that anybody thinks it is discrimination to be required to use the language of the country they live and are trying to grow a business in. England is appalling at teaching/learning languages in schools, maybe because they just expect everyone else to speak it wherever they go. All across Europe, large percentages of the population can speak at least basic English. Would you expect to move to the Czech Republic and be outraged that you can't participate in a local public event because you refuse to use at least bilingual signage/pamphlets/advertising in your business? Would you really say, well most of them can speak English so why should I use their language?
It's of absolutely no relevance that not everybody in Wales speaks Welsh. We are a multicultural country, just as most other countries are, so there are hundreds of languages being used on a daily basis. Why do you think that this means that the Welsh language shouldn't be protected and promoted?

If the events are financed by public money, or organised by bodies set up to promote the Welsh language, then it might explain the requirement. You need to specify what the events are.

If you really are interested in learning Welsh, then there are free apps, join Twitter and you'll find lots of support (have a look at Carol Vordeman's Twitter to find ideas!). If you're in Cardiff, try Menter Caerdydd for support. If I moved to France, Spain, Italy or wherever, I'd learn the language. I appreciate it isn't easy (my partner is far from being a natural linguist, really struggles with learning languages, but even he managed to learn Welsh fluently), especially when you can usually get away with not bothering like you can in Wales because 'everyone speaks English anyway', but by learning Welsh you learn more than just the language in my opinion - there's a culture and community that you're missing out on without it, not to mention all the lovely Welsh Taffia money that will find it's way into the bank account of your business. What have you got to lose...?!

I don't think the OP is the only person posting deliberately provocatively, tbh.

Why did @WaitingForAdulthood's post get deleted? I didn't think it was offensive.

She was merely responding to some GFery earlier on in the thread!

@Coldemort that's an excellent choice of team name!
Yes your situation sounds similar to mine, native language for my grandad, my dad was a grammar school boy who speaks a bit and then me who grew up with only a smattering.

Yanbu, I understand that desire to preserve the Welsh language but I do think it leads to discrimation. Many Welsh people in their thirties and older were never taught Welsh in school, whereas now many schools are Welsh speaking and teach in Welsh. I do think there is a Welsh speaking clique.

Moving to Spain is very different - Spanish people can actually speak Spanish and choose to use it in day to day life! Last time I was in Spain (not the Costa del Sol, which is my idea of hell) I did pick up a bit of Spanish and used Google translate liberally where necessary.

If I knew many Welsh people who actually spoke Welsh, it would be different. I have a friend who was born, bred and has always lived in Wales, but had no idea what Nadolig Llawen meant. Another friend who grew up in rural South West Wales also speaks sod all Welsh. I've got a couple of friends who sometimes work for me at big events where I need an extra pair of hands - neither of them speak Welsh despite having been educated here in the 90s and 00s!

The default language of life and business in Cardiff is English.

I'm not approaching Menter Caerdydd for help when they're one of the organisations rejecting me for not speaking Welsh. I've downloaded Duolingo (I really don't have the £90 for lessons that someone up thread assumed I must) but I'm really not sure why people think "incomers" should be forced to learn Welsh, when the native Welsh don't and can't see the point of doing so?

Only been to Wales as a regular visitor but Welsh Language course seemed freely available and all over the shop for people who missed out at school.

If I knew many Welsh people who actually spoke Welsh, it would be different. I have a friend who was born, bred and has always lived in Wales, but had no idea what Nadolig Llawen meant.

I find this impossible to believe.

@Ohtherewearethen But people in England do not have to have leaflets advertising their business in English. Most people do, but if they are serving a section of the population whose first language is unlikely to be English, they do not.

In other countries people advertise in the local language because it makes commercial sense, not because they are forced to.
So I have been abroad and picked up leaflets totally in English that are aiming services to me as a tourist.